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Kit 1 vs kit 2

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Rune

Anyone heard both that will take the challenge trying to describe the differences in sound:-) ?
I actually once owned the kit one,and I had an all AN system for a while with E speakers,kit preamp and CDT1,DAC kit 1.1.
A fantastic musical system,but as a drummer and bassplayer I'm very hung up in the rythm of music,and I sometimes felt that some of the AN gear lacks "speed"....?
Now I'm waiting for a Von Schweikert DB-99 speaker(99 dB sensitivity), and I know they used Conquest,among others, when they voiced these speakers,so I guess the kit one should make for a good match.So I'm thinking about a reunion :-) with a kit one,which I thought sounded amazingly real on mostly simple music like jazztrios,simple classic,voices aso ,but felt the system didn't had enough toe-tappin' "groove" :-)
My general impression about 300B vs 6550 tube would be that the 300B is more focused around the midrange while the 6550 to me generally seem to have more focus around top and bottom end,and I haven't heard a 6550 amp that I thought sounded "fast" enough for me.
Today I'm playing on a Consonance M800SE(75w with EL34 tubes),which is pretty much the same construction as DIY hifisupply ELLA and Consonance M100 and M400.And this is the only tube amp I have heard where I don't feel like the drummer and bassplayer is sounding like they are dragging behind:-)
Any thoughts?
Best regards,
Rune

Follow Ups:

Re: Kit 1 vs kit 2 as in amps? - Pauly 19:33:38 06/12/05 (7)
I have just completed a kit2 6550.
- Re: Kit 1 vs kit 2 as in amps? - Rune 01:39:07 06/14/05 (6)
  Congratulation!
  Do you play any rock,funk and stuff like that?
  Regards,
  Rune
  - Re: Kit 1 vs kit 2 as in amps? - Pauly 20:32:00 06/14/05 (5)
    Thanks.
    I listen to rock, folk and jazz mainly and listen only to vinyl. The kit2 really excels at more complex pieces and is very dynamic in nature � the sound literally leaps out the speakers. It has amazing extention at both ends, yet it still resolves strings, vocals and brass like a good SET. The kit2 is single ended but runs in tetrode mode. I have not heard the kit1, but compared to other 300B/2A3's I have heard the kit2 is a lot more lively and dynamic. It really has a very unique sound but is more "SET like" than push-pull ultralinear/tetrode like.
    I wanted to build a parallel 300B amp but Brian convinced me to go with the kit2 instead. I must admit I am quite glad I went with the kit2.
    I got the kit with the chrome covers and it looks really cool. I am busy changing caps, resitors (tantulums) and putting in a TDB volume pot.
    Regards
    Paul
    - Re: Kit 1 vs kit 2 as in amps? - Rune 10:09:15 06/15/05 (4)
      Thanks Paul!
      I loved my Kit one for it's real sound on voices and instruments,but I wasn't satisfied on more complex music,like Deep Purple,Led Zeppelin and similar music,so it is quite interesting if you feel the kit 2 EXCELS at more complex material.Have you tried SET in that same set up you have now?Or any other tubeamp for that matter?
      I like what you're writing about it being very dynamic.Dynamics is very important in my opinion!
      Best regards,
      Rune
      - It is more than very dynamic - Pauly 15:33:18 06/15/05 (3)
        
        In Reply to: Re: Kit 1 vs kit 2 as in amps? posted by Rune on June 15, 2005 at 10:09:15:
        
        Yep, I have two others at the moment. I have a 6C33 SET and an EL34 push-pull ultra linear. Both were ASL integrated amps but are extensively modified now i.e. Lots of hard wiring, coupling caps, hexfred etc. etc. I definitely prefer the kit2 to either these. I also lived with a Cary V12i for a couple of years.
        I don't know if you have heard (good) front loaded horn speakers, but that is what the kit2 remind me of. The music seems to leap out at you. It demands your attention. It is fast, rhythmic, detailed and accurate i.e. dynamic. So for rock it really works very very well. I listened to Deep Purple's 'Reborn' a few nights ago and I was blown over - it rocked. With the other amps it is just another one of my LP's.
        It is good with more laid back stuff too. But in a bizarre way it is almost disappointing listening to laid back stuff as it does the same on that as any good SET amp does � no worse no better (not that that is bad right?). With rock, it does something that I cannot really articulate. I have never heard an amp that comes close. I guess you can deduce that I like my kit2 :)
        If you want an amp with a bit of snap but like SET sound, this is the guy to get.
        There is a bit more to the build than the 300B but Brian is very helpful and never more than a phone call away.
        Regards
        Paul
        Ps. I'll send some pics if you want.
        
        I kind of get the impression you like it,yes:-) - Rune 06:29:13 06/16/05 (2)
        
        In Reply to: It is more than very dynamic posted by Pauly on June 15, 2005 at 15:33:18:
        
        Thanks for sharing!
        So even though there is much bass,it is still fast and have definition?Thats a rare combination for a tube amp in my opinion,but I really like much bass as long as it has speed enough to seperate whats happening down there and not the kind of one-note bass.
        I actually just want to hear the bassdrum and bassguitar aso, and not "bass"...:-)
        I love to see a picture yes!
        But please keep it smaller than about 800kB,because my hotmail acount can't take anymore than that ; runemigge@hotmail.com
        Thanks
        All the best
        Rune
        
        Re: I kind of get the impression you like it,yes:-) - Pauly 18:54:15 06/16/05 (1)
        
        In Reply to: I kind of get the impression you like it,yes:-) posted by Rune on June 16, 2005 at 06:29:13:
        
        Hi Rune
        Sent you a pic. (667kb)
        Yep, you hear not just bass, but the bass guitar, and the drum, ( and the organ, and the precussion and ... and ... ). It resolves the even the most smallest detail of complex pieces with ease. As I mentioned, I am upgrading the caps, putting in tantulum resistors, upgrading to TDK volume pot and hardwiring the signal path � I cannot wait.
        I initially thought it was going to be a compromise between a SET and a push pull. That it is yes, but it seems come closer to doing the best of both rather than 50-50 of each.
        Regards
        Paul
        
        Thanks! - Rune 00:54:21 06/17/05 (0)
        
        In Reply to: Re: I kind of get the impression you like it,yes:-) posted by Pauly on June 16, 2005 at 18:54:15:
        
        Thanks for all the info and the picture.It looks very nice!
        Most likely I will go with the kit2 when my new speakers have arrived:-)
        Best regards
        Rune
Re: Kit 1 vs kit 2 - RGA 11:16:32 06/10/05 (17)
Tube amps are faster than SS in my ezperience. Fast and slow is strange as the E is one of the fastest speakers available -- leading edges and transients and dynamics are some of the best around. Paper drivers are faster than kevlar or any of the plastics so short of an electrost and or full ribbon I don;t see it getting "faster" and of course as a bass player you'll know the trouble that panels have at any credible bass.
Note I have not heard any of the kit amps but in my experience with the speakers -- I preferred the production speaker to the kit E and I prefer the Silver wired variations of the speakers which have an almost ruthless quality to the front end...that is why Peter has levels which one should not deviate too far from.
One thing I would add to his level system - he says you can go up or down one level -- the Silver speakers are pickier -- the E/L sounded nice enough with the Rotel electronics I heard but the K and E Spe sounded almost harsh and very 2dimensional -- moving to the Oto or Meishu the K and E sounded far superior while the L sounded a bit dull.
My friend is also a drummer and so was Stephen Rochlin of enjoythemusic.com. The only thing I can think of if you're still on the bubble is to try the AN high Efficiency version of the E which is 98db. The Kit may not have enough ballsy power for bass and drumming -- the OTO does on my less efficient J/Spe but my room is in the 12X15 range which is not big.
- Re: Kit 1 vs kit 2 - MikeRanfft 20:03:56 06/19/05 (13)
  Hey RGA-You find the AN E/L 's dull? I find mine just right-but I guess it depends on wiring, taste and other variables. One of these days you'll have to hear mine when you're visiting in Victoria.
  Mike
  - Re: Kit 1 vs kit 2 - RGA 13:36:01 06/20/05 (12)
    Well dull is in direct comparison terms -- when you are A/B-ing the speakers then that's what came out in comparison to the silvered versions. But then IMO when you pay more you should get more otherwise why would anyone ever buy a higher level of speaker?
    The E/L still trounces the B&W N801 - an example of a company where you pay a LOT more and get a lot less.
    - Re: Kit 1 vs kit 2 - MikeRanfft 19:10:37 06/20/05 (11)
      I think the AN E/L's are a pretty great value in both finished or kit implementation. The E's seem to be pretty articulate across the frequency continuum, even in L wiring. But silver wiring definately makes a very lucid sound, in any AN speaker.
      I am presently using Linn wiring but am likely moving to some L speaker cable (last years' Lexus) and will be interested to see how this interacts with my AN E/L.
      Mike
      - Re: Kit 1 vs kit 2 - RGA 01:58:48 06/21/05 (10)
        
        In Reply to: Re: Kit 1 vs kit 2 posted by MikeRanfft on June 2, 2005 at 19:10:37:
        
        Yes I was just listening to a fellow who recently bought the K/Spe in Oak and he had a get together at his place so we listened to the K's and Gershman Acoustics X1/Sub1 a fine system. One guy brought his AN L cables but I could not really evaluate any cables as we kept changing amps sources and speakers - so who knows what caused what sound. I can say I liked the $30.00 but modded a bit Sonic Impact Class T amp over the Musical Fidelity A3 power amp with a preamp connected. I was surprised.
        Someone brought a Roksan Radius 5 turntable so I'm going to try and keep that in my head when I listen to the AN TT1 Table. The Roksan uttelry embarrassed my player and the hosts Pro-Ject Debut II and M97Xe cart. The Roksan had a MC cart and costs about the same as the TT1 but the Roksan LOOKS so damn cool. I wish I could A/B the two -- the only thing don't like is that there is no cover.
        Soundhounds has a deal on some older models of the TT1...we'll see I need to get a job for the summer and finding a job here is brutal.
        
        Re: Kit 1 vs kit 2 - MikeRanfft 07:16:08 06/25/05 (9)
        
        In Reply to: Re: Kit 1 vs kit 2 posted by RGA on June 21, 2005 at 01:58:48:
        
        Ah the search for a good vinyl rig-I remember it well. And good audio will always cost money. I wanted to ask you how much of a toe-in you are using for your speakers.
        Mike
        
        not much... - RGA 22:26:08 06/25/05 (8)
        
        In Reply to: Re: Kit 1 vs kit 2 posted by MikeRanfft on June 25, 2005 at 07:16:08:
        
        the front corner is about 10 inches from the side wall and the back corner 6 inches - My room is 13X15 or so and I suppose I sit about 8 feet back with the speakers about 8 feet apart -- the tweeter maybe cross a few inches in front of my face. I have experiemented quite a lot and this is working for me -- they are simply sensitive to subtle changes but seem to me to work in any of the spots I've tried but just differently in those spots. I have them about 17 inches from the corner point. Soundstaging and imagig work here well and i retain most of the bass depth -- I will be getting some side and rear wall treatments to try out as it only costs me $30.00Cad. If i don;t like it I can use it for my other speakers. I got rid of a big leather chair from my room so tomorrow I'll have to see what happens to the treble - I have a pretty dense room carpeted -- but all my walls are bare.
        One fellow who bought the K (he wanted to see if I was really a nut or not) obviously liked them - but he put these sound doorstopper things on top of the K. He felt his Gershman's image and soundstaged better. I'm not convinced. The K's can sound vague on some recording and not on others so it seems to follow his CbyC philosophy. I would just fiddle with them regarding toe in.
        have you ever tried them facing straight ahead? One day I will try it just to see what happens. Soundhounds sort has it like that and they seem to work well.
        
        Re: not much... - MikeRanfft 20:11:22 06/27/05 (7)
        
        In Reply to: not much... posted by RGA on June 25, 2005 at 22:26:08:
        
        I think that a lot depends on the level of cables used too, as it has a bearing on the frequency extension in the bass, midrange harmonics etc.
        Richard, I use 1 1/2 " toe-in and this seems to work for me. So the speakers are each 3 1/2" -5" away from the wall and 4 1/2" each away on the inside from the fireplace hearth that comes out about 4" from the wall and extends from speaker to speaker. I have found that if I increase the toe-in by half and inch the sound becomes drier and loses some sparkle and harmonic richness across the spectrum.
        I sit about 8-14' away from the speakers and they are aobut 6' apart on the inside.
        I think if the speakers were faced straight ahead they would lose imaging, and the sound become too diffuse. But it would be interesting to spend an afternoon adjusting inch by inch and assessing.
        I agree that the AN speakers interact a lot with their environment.
        Sorry, but I find it hard to understand/visualize your measurements.
        Mike
        
        Re: not much... - RGA 18:24:47 06/28/05 (6)
        
        In Reply to: Re: not much... posted by MikeRanfft on June 27, 2005 at 20:11:22:
        
        Frankly I think they are extremely room friendly speakers because they rarely sound anything less than good no matter where you put them -- but good and magic are not the same and to get the magic requires a lot of work.
        I am trying to Finish the system off with a good turntable - and the TT1 soundhounds got a deal on some older ones -- but the deal price is not a helluva lot lower than the price listed on DR. Cope's site as iour dollar is way better than it used to be.
        I need a job this summer real soon. All this education and business background and Nanaimo has nothing. I'll send an e-mail to soundhounds to see what kind of trade in value the NAD 533?shure 97 has -- not much I'm betting, My Senn HD 600s/ ASL headphone amp I would part with as well.
        I'm going to start pulling out my hockey card collection -- LOL. What's a slightly creased Mario Lemieux Rookie card going for these days?
        
        Re: not much... - MikeRanfft 06:44:21 07/01/05 (5)
        
        In Reply to: Re: not much... posted by RGA on June 28, 2005 at 18:24:47:
        
        Are you going with a TT1 Richard? Just wanted to give a plug for a TT2, though of course we're into a lot more dollar wise unless it comes in used. But the second motor really adds a lot more dynamic range, etc. You probably know I reviewed it favorably compared to a Linn Lingo on AA.
        Mike
        
        Re: not much... - MikeRanfft 06:54:06 07/01/05 (4)
        
        In Reply to: Re: not much... posted by MikeRanfft on July 1, 2005 at 06:44:21:
        
        Whoops, just saw you debating re the TT1/TT2 higher up on the site. Sorry, should have gone from top down.
        Mike
        
        Re: not much... - RGA 10:59:44 07/01/05 (3)
        
        In Reply to: Re: not much... posted by MikeRanfft on July 1, 2005 at 06:54:06:
        
        It's just the TT2 is full price -- So $1500.00US just for the table. I can get the TT1 with the ARM and IQ1 for $1700.00Cdn.
        But I have a feeling depreication is really high so I may put it off and wait for the TT2 (3-4years). I want to buy stuff from now on that I don't intend to upgrade. I simply need some good sources...both my vinyl and cd could use big improvements.
        There is a lot of vinyl I want to buy new but my turntable isn't good enough so I've put off buying some vinyl -- it may be that the cartridge needs an upgrade most badly. I've had it for 2.5 years now or so and it was slightly used when I got it. (Shure M97Xe). The stock Goldring cart was truly terrible.
        I could swing a few hundred on the cartridge - but I don't know how to put it on nor do I have the equipment. Paul put it on for me with all these measuring instruments. I would like to learn so I don't have to lug the table all the way to Soundhounds. Can you tell I grew up on CD?
        
        Re: not much... - MikeRanfft 12:05:19 07/01/05 (2)
        
        In Reply to: Re: not much... posted by RGA on July 1, 2005 at 10:59:44:
        
        Hi Richard,
        It's hard deciding what to do when for sure. The TT2 is tough on your budget though it is a great TT, and as you are aware good sources make a really huge difference.
        Have you thought of the Rega 2 as an interim table- it is another way to go. You'd lose less when you trade it in. Some say the arm on the Rega 2 is the best of the Rega arms-apart from the wiring.
        Speaking of sources, I am breaking in a AN 1.1DAC Sig Mk 2, using my Arcam '72 as a transport for now. Pretty superb right out of the box.
        Mike
        
        Re: not much... - RGA 16:28:23 07/02/05 (1)
        
        In Reply to: Re: not much... posted by MikeRanfft on July 1, 2005 at 12:05:19:
        
        Wow congrats ont he DAC -- That is on my list.
        I have the Rega 2 right now. The NAD 533 is a rega 2 clone made by Rega for NAD -- the difference is the colour. The NAD 533 has the modded Rega 250 arm.
        The other thing is that the TT1 has gotten so many raves from every quarter that in someways it could very well serve as an interim high end table. It did win product of the year in Britain for a couple years running -- and while I don't go by the reviews chances are it's no slouch.
        
        Re: not much... - MikeRanfft 06:19:59 07/03/05 (0)
        
        In Reply to: Re: not much... posted by RGA on July 2, 2005 at 16:28:23:
        
        Sorry, I did not know that NAD rebadged a Rega 2 as their own. Yes, the AN TT1 is a great value and has got to be a great performer to have received those reviews. Brian here certainly seems to enjoy his TT1 a lot. Maybe if you buy a TT1 by the time you are ready to go to the next level Peter will have fashioned the external power supply for the TT2. (He seems to want to do this but other projects have taken precedence right now.)
        Mike
- Re: Kit 1 vs kit 2 - Rune 03:22:46 06/11/05 (2)
  My Von Schweikert DB-99 is shipped from the US these days,so I wil not be thinking about new speakers the first week:-)
  You should all check out VSA speakers if you haven't heard any of them.These are certainly a musicians speaker!
  I agree with you that tube amps sounds faster from around the upper bass and up.My concern is the lower bass that often get too full,bloated(I do not know how to describe it),and I very often loose the toe tappin feelin to the music.Seems like it lacks "speed" in the bass.Playing Led Zeppelin without getting the interplay between John Bonham and John Paul Jones,is like not hearing one of the greatest rock bands ever,IMO:-)
  When I had that system I did rather put on simpler music,beacause the groovy stuff wasn't so fun to listen too.
  I had the AN E basic version,and allthough they too this day maybe the most musical speaker I've heard,I actually felt it has some issues in the bass department.I felt like it lacked definition in the lowest bass,but this could be that I didn't work too much with placing them or the surrounding equipment....?
  Regards,
  Rune
  - Did you have them in corners? - RGA 10:47:55 06/11/05 (1)
    They are extremely placement critical -- some/most have best results in corners -- some others due to the construction of their walls find them out from corners better -- I find the weight and presentation best in corners with toe in such that the tweeter is facing at your head or a about 1-3 feet in front of your head. -- The distance from the corner is key as well -- to close it gets slow and thuddy -- too far and it gets thin. O still say they are room friendly in that even not positioned bang on they sound good - nevertheless there is zone where they will sound best. The double bass and bass in general I find to be one of the major strengths of the speaker --- I've heard deeper mind you -- but resolution is some of the best I've heard.
    Again though not everyone is going to hear it the same way -- but I would get them positioned correctly with an appropriate amplifier. The silver wiring and ply cabinet matters IMO --- and I'm one of the more skeptical when it comes to wires -- crossover change as well no doubt.
    - Re: Did you have them in corners? - Rune 03:42:38 06/18/05 (0)
      No,they were placed with one having a corner,but not very close,and the other one didn't have any sidewall.
      I agree with you that a doublebass alone and a drumwhack sounded very good,but when a lot of things happened,more complex music,I felt it didn't have enough definition.But as I said this could be the room,placement or the rest of the equipment.
      Best regards
      Rune

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