- Posted by LiquidMidrange (A) on March 23, 2006 at 15:38:49
Has anyone heard this?ARC is claiming it has much of the sound of the new Ref3.
I'm thinking about a purchase...thanks!
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Has anyone heard this?ARC is claiming it has much of the sound of the new Ref3.
I'm thinking about a purchase...thanks!
Anyone seen it yet? There will also be a successor to the VT100 MKIII released soon. Slightly more powerful (and more expensive) than the VT100 according to Leonard.
Liquid Midrange,Sorry about the title- it was to attract attention. We all know that Krell is Satan.
I was a big fan of the LS-25/I which used 4- ECC88 (6DJ8) family tubes. At the time, I felt the LS25 was so good, was the extra $4,500 to have the REF was worth it? The LS25 was very likeable and doing everything well.
The LS-25 turned out to be one of the best of the Lss- I think along with the LS5 it will be one of the best regarded. I heard these in the local ARC boutique with big Magnepans and renewed my electrostatic charge- very nice.
But, when the LS25 MKII went to the 2- 6H30 "supertubes", I thought it was tending a bit towards a certain clean, dynamic, and transparent sound that was excellent but over time almost too lively and fast, a bit too forward.
In my view, the MKII had slight disadvantage along with the newer REF and LS series: the 6H30 tube. And I have to say the term "supertube" that is always attached to it, makes my skin crawl- it's silly thing for adults to keep saying.
As far as I know every 6H30 is from the same factory and there are no plug-in alternatives. It's not that these 6H30 designs are not admirable and make very impressive sounds, but rather the sound of a REF 2 with at least two of it's 8-ECC88s with some nice old Amperexes, Siemens, or Mullards, can be very satisfying. The tube can transform sound and at the level of performance this gear, I think it's worth considering the refinement potential of the tube with a lot of options.
Comes the LS26, which I know little about except it's a 2- 6H30 design with modern SP16/CD7-like displays and a REF gain control. And it something like $6,000. If it's supposed to be REF 3 similar- (and I thought the LS25 was REF-like already) and improvement on the LS25, it must be a nice one.
Also: Though I like the REF 2 sonically, I should mention I don't care for that series physically- I never liked horizontally mounted tubes nor seeing the edges of circuit boards- which shows their thineness. And the LS25 has a very complex layout which is crowded looking.
As an experiment, I decided to use solid state for my office system and bought a used LS-3 and D-130 and the LS-3 is just architectural, the circuit boards has this obviously symmentrical layout wiht a lot of space arounf thick traces. I find that the newer ARC designs seem to be loosening attention to the interior visual design. This is a kind of loss I think- as there are many older ARC circuit boards that are things of industrial beauty.
I expect there are engineering reasons- keeping certain parts as close as possible to certain other parts- avoiding noisy mechanical controls, but newer ARC is not appealing in the same way the "golden era" machines were. Oh no! I'm the first person to have 80's nostaligia!
My thought is to listen carefully and see if you're a 6DJ8 person or a 6H30 person before buying- the basic gain tube contributes a lot of the "personality". Though I think we may find that an LS26 is a more refined LS25/II sound (the 2-6H30s) with more modern controls, I expect that the voicing for the sound of the 6H30 will be noticeably better. The dilemna is whether more of that character is more pleasing for you.
I faced a the same dilemna 20 years ago when I went from an SP-8 to an SP-10, am still not convinced I'm a 6DJ8 person rather than a 12AX7 person. The SP-10 is glorious and perfection to be bowed in front of, but the SP-8 is the friendly puppy I can play with for hours. -I still have both preamps.
A possible shopping scenario: While having a serious listen to the LS26, simultaneously imagine taking about $4,400, buying the best used REF 2 MKI around, and filling it with Bugle Boy 6DJ8s.
I should mention my comments may be influenced by having already 9 months listening to all solid state and in my weakened condition, suffering from tube withdrawal, recommend the thing with the most tubes and greatest NOS fussing potential.
Cheers,
Bambi B
I have heard the 6H30 tube sound good in other tube amps....I think it depends on implementation and circuit design.
both the act2 and ct5 use 6h30's and to me they have lost the cj midrange and slight tube warmth magic. If this is neutrality I hate it.
If you hate the sound of newer CJ gear, I can't and won't dispute that (or anyone's) preference. We each know what satisfies us. Maybe someday there will a lush/warm sound renaissance, but most current tube preamps do seem to be heading toward what you might call neutrality. And not for reasons of "livining up" their sound. Time honored manufacturers such as ARC and Conrad-Johnson don't need to follow trends or change their philosophical approach to catch a market buzz. They both take a path of continuous improvement - or what they honestly believe is improvement. Can they go wrong? Sure. Is the 6H30 the wrong tube? Dunno. History will tell us. However, from its implementation in the ACT2 and from what folks tell me of the REF3 I suspect the answer is 'no' - as LiquidMidrange suggests, it depends on implementation and circuit design.For me the ACT2 is magic incarnate. Ten years ago people said the 6DJ8-based Premier 16LS was a radical departure from the traditional CJ lush/warm/tubey sound. They said it was an heretical shift toward the yang. Today, the Premier 16LS is viewed as one of best preamps CJ ever made. (Presumably, as 16LS owners, we can agree on this?) At less than $4k on the used market its a steal.
In contrast to the 16LS, the ACT2 is faster, more holographic, capable of quicker and broader dynamic swings in the midrange as well as the lows and highs, does not smear leading edge transients and demonstrates excellent note decay, is quieter, is revelatory of fine detail without spotlighting, etc. etc.. That is its shift toward 'neutral' (aka more life-like). Timbral differences, in my opinion, have to get pretty far out of whack to reflect a departure from timbral differences in the RW - I don't think of timbre as having a 'neutral position' on a dial. Agreed the ACT2 is not quite as yin-leaning as the 16LS and it exhibits less distortion, however it is really (imo) not that much different in terms of warm/cool - it still falls to the warm side. Imo, the difference is less than the difference between concert halls. And you certainly won't mistake it for ARC gear. :) I do agree you cannot tune a CT5 or ACT2 the way you can by tube rolling an ART or 16LS. As much fun as I had rolling tubes in the 16LS - there isn't a stock 6DJ8/6922/7308 in current production that I'd trade for a current production 6H30. I've had CJ preamps since the PV-5, and imo, they are on the right track. It would be impossible to give up the magic and go back. YMMV Try an ACT2 with a top flight EL34 based amp - that'll give you Warm Magic. :) Cheers!
I dont think the ACT2 and CT5 have lost the midrange magic - especially when hooked up to the new LP70s. The magic is not in the warmth per se but in good midrange dynamic expression.The key to to getting warmth out of most 6H30 based components is to setup speakers much farther apart than usual.
Shane from AUS,My audio dictum is that all reproduction is artifical and distorted, so the task is to find the kind of distortion we prefer.
I haven't heard a Conrad-Johnson 6H30 preamp, but it already sounds a bit incongruous as C-J has maintained a certain kind of sound that leans towards the more lush and deep. -Packed with healthy tube goodness.
I'm again reminded of the mid-80's when the 6DJ8 became so regarded as the great frame grid hope of preamp tubes. When the 6DJ8 works it can be fantastic, but overall I'm not sure it's close to the ideal preamp tube- they seem especially difficult to make well. And now the 6H30 is poised to take over yet again. Though the results with the 6H30 in ARC stuff are impressive, I think some samll part of the enthusiasm is a "latest thing" phenomenon- the need for a different, less familiar timbre timbre to liven up the line. ARC obviously is not completely unified on the 6H30 as the SP16 did skip "back" over the 6DJ8 to the 12AX7.
It will be interesting to see what the future "SP17" does. Personally, I'd like ARC to do something like an SP-10 phono stage with an LS25/I line stage- all tube regulated, voiced for the EH6922 in a REF format chassis: MSRP $5,295.
I admire ARC for staying with a sonic direction and continuing to pursue and refine it, but as I hear the 6H30 models I find myself respecting them but looking more at the earlier 6DJ8 designs for the truly likeable, and 12AX7- when a cuddle's in order.
Cheers,Bambi B
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