- Posted by longtimequadowner (A) on January 05, 2004 at 15:59:21
To the delight of many I'm sure, I'll be shutting up now on the subject of the panasonic SAXR45/25 by summing up here, I think it's all been said, more than enough by me. I have no doubt many would love to see me leave this page forever, I thought I was pretty fair and balanced actually - sorry for being enthusiastic, I thought that was allowed. I only really joined AA because so many were dumping all over the Quad 989's that subsequent posters were deciding not to audition them so negative were all the AA comments - just can't please some people! So rejoice naysayers, never will I respond to a future thread on the panasonic unless it's genuinely a new subject, but please don't take that to mean I've abandoned it in 2 months - that won't be the case!As an 8 week owner of the panasonic, which has been played probably around 8 hours per day average (and left on a blank tuner station overnight at low volume), I have quite a volume of direct experience with it - I manage to listen about 3 hours per day, although not chronically listening to it as a "stereo", just loving music. I love it to death, and don't care what they naysayers think. Despite the fact that I can afford the equipment I want, I try not to be a pricetag audiophile, and LOVE it when great budget gear comes out - so many decades I survived on Kraft dinner just to get my first Fisher 7591 Tube receiver and Quad ESL 57's.
At $50 per channel (6 channels for $300 for the XR45, mine is only the XR25), this is one of the most exciting developments I've seen in a long time. Much like the PS Audio HCA-2 making it into Class A in Stereophile at $1700, audiophiles should rejoice - if this is what panasonic (of all companies) can do without even trying (my XR25 is not even their top model - the XR45 is the one that's said to have more attention to "sound quality" with higher quality parts - whatever that means at this price level?!?) - then damn, the future looks good, and given that it's piggybacking onto the digital technology freight-train, the future will come faster than modders can hotrod this puppy.
Nowhere have I ever said that the Pansonic is competitive with the HCA-2 - I've never heard the HCA, for starters. My only gripe with the HCA comparison was the 2 week breakin' on the panasonic, my experience as an owner is otherwise. The HCA-2, a bargain (it's said) at the price, paired with the matching preamp, and decent CD player/DAC, would run close to $4,000 with interconnects though - I should certainly hope it walks all over the $300 panasonic which is a pre, power, DAC in one (and tuner, haven't tried it). In fact, I've invited another PS Audio poster to my Vancouver home (should I ever get there), so we can do a side by side with the PS Audio on my Quad 989's, which Sam Tellig (I believe it was) said was heaven on the 989's - I have no doubt I'll be liplocked then, in fact hope to be - it's always good news to find something great.
That said, the panasonic has a certain clarity of sound that is hard to find in most any analog amp anywhere near it's price, much less any $50 per channel one - has a massive soundspace, true coherence that is going to go ever so well with my Quad 989's when I get home (since I added the PS Audio Xstream, admittedly raising the price considerably), and a trueness to the source material that should only be expected when the signal path is so insanely short, if not at $50 per channel. To quote one other longterm owner who said it best "Like looking at the stones on the bottom of a glacial stream, one cannot even detect the water". My words would be "true to the source - no readily identifiable character of it's own". Shortcomings and omissions? Compared to the PS Audio and Spectrons of the world, surely - but sins of ommission are pretty easy to take in this case, and it gives you a taste of a new paradigm.
And surely it should sound like a direct link to the source, because that's exactly what it is! If you have a digital power amp fed by an analog front end and digital source - here's what's happening in a traditional setup with a digital power amp (others have called this "hype" on my part, you decide):
1. CD player is converting digital to analog
2. Analog signal passes through interconnects to preamp
3. Preamp processes signal
4. Processed signal goes through more interconnects to power amp
5. Power amp - in the case of digitals, converts analog signal back to digitalIn the case of the panasonic and other digital-input integrateds:
1. CD player sends digital data - bypassing all DACs/circuitry - all
you need is a transport
2. Digital data travels through coax/optical connection
3. Digital amp converts CD data to ??? data - I'll leave it to
the tekkies to fill ??? in, but it does it with seemingly
mathematical accuracy - and I assume in an all-digital domain.
Want bloom and caramel coating? Not here, sorry, unless it's
in the source - try smooth jazz. Air and Ambiance? Plenty,
if it's in the source - but it ain't no tube amp.For the "shortest signal path with least manipulation" the traditional scenario is really insane compared to the likes of an all-digital amp like the Spectron Trubador and others - I'll quote the Spectron website regarding the Trubador For purists, this might be the perfect amplifier as its digital input allows the direct digital connection from a CD player with SPDIF out thus eliminating the need for a preamp and all AD or DA conversion steps other than at the final speaker output. Indeed. And that's not to even mention elimination of all those boxes, interconnects, power cords for each, and tweaks for each (iso platforms, tiptoes, etc etc etc). I know transports are important, but with the likes of the Spectron Trubador, and the Panasonic, all you need is a good stable bit-spitter - not all the DAC circuitry, I hope more companies start making dedicated transports so we don't all have to pay for all that other circuitry when going with an all digital.
For me, another major advantage of this type of all digital integrated is direct input for satellite and digital cablefeeds - a ton of new, commercial free music. I plug the SPDIF output from my TV's cablesystem directly into the panasonic's coax digital input, and I am in pure heaven. You have to hear smooth jazz to believe it - talk about a soundspace, grace, and delicacy - my god! Holograhpic imaging? Not a problem. Sweeping and beautiful, absolutely incredible. Pop songs are big fun too. Classical has a much wider variety of qualites of recordings than I ever imagined, and a much greater venue signature - not always for the better (not to mention hearing every little thing that happens during the performance). I always listened to it with my analog tuner to admire it's recording quality, but so spacious - lovely - and PRAT-ty is it through digital cable, that I am truly enjoying whole new type(s) of music for the first time - it makes so much more musical sense when heard correctly, and that was the best thing that happened to me musically in 2003. I have a lot of jazz to catch up on, and will surely move from smooth jazz to "real" jazz. 40 channels of digital music, commercial free, directly connected to the panasonic - life is good.
As I've said in other posts, for my main rig this is likely the last TYPE of amp I'll ever buy - all digital integrated. The Spectron Trubador and Musician III (not out yet - but will also have direct digital input) are of great interest because of the work their doing with feedback (sinners, right?) that they quite nicely explain on their website. From what I gather, they use feedback to measure the distortion at the output of the amp, feed back that info, and insert information in opposite phase back to the signal to correct for the distortion, all before it gets out the door - they claim, 10x faster than any conventional amp, in other words presumably undetecatable. In addition, they have speaker cables that they say measure the distortion at the speaker terminals, feeds THAT back, and corrects for it at the amp level. Damn! Got to give them credit for explaining that, as feedback is viewed as a sin by many. I'm no tekkie so that interpretation is probably not a good tech one, but I belive that to be the jist of it (anyone out there using this yet?).
My point is, for a rediculously low $50 per channel, you can get a better taste of what digitals can do than I'd have ever imagined - when you pair it with a good power cord (which clearly raises the price considerably), and have full range speakers (otherwise it will shear your head off - you need speakers that are at least capable of LS35/A type bass deception, and even then an appropriately sized smaller room). I chose the PS Audio Xstream 6' - twice the price of the panasonic, but for a total $1k I'm not complaining, and can use the Xtream elsewhere in the future. I resisted the urge to upgrade the cable for 7 weeks so skeptical I was, but at the urging of many others, finally did - and they were sooooo right (of course the pansonic comes with a gameboy style cord). I just hope there's a more price-conscious one that does as much for budget buyers - like the Audience or a lower model Xstream, for example, rasing the total price to somewhere's around $500.
And, maybe this is where all the flames come from - when I do get home to Vancouver I AM selling my other gear and sticking with the panasonic, because this IS the last TYPE of amp I want in my main rig - one box, light as a feather, runs cool, and shockingly good. Does it beat the equipment I have at home in every regard? Surely not. But in the regards it does do, I want MORE of that, and believe it will be found in the likes of Tact, Spectron, Bel Canto, Solar, PS Audio, etc. Also, I'm getting tired of equipment stacks, wires, and since I travel a lot that's doubly true. And since I just want to find something I love, and not be perenially switching gear, I don't need separates. Most importantly of all, it eliminates equipment synergy issues - when stereophile/TAS review a preamp, power amp, and DAC in one like the Spectron Trubador, you get the exact same "system" and synergy in your home - all that's left for synergy is your speakers and Transport (bit spitter only) and cabling. In fact, once I do sell it, maybe I'll get a pair of Spendor SP100's - if I can ultimately get away without massive planars, believe me I would - but in 15 years I've never been without quads, not sure that will happen. If it could ever happen though, SP100's sound like the ticket.
Finally, regarding the Panasonic and it's value - remember it has 6 channels of 100 watt, can be relegated to home theatre when you're done with it, and when coupled with the Behringer all digital crossover, the value of the 6 channel panasonic just went up in a big way - click here to visit the Newform Research site (then click menu's Expert Advice => What's New => August 2003 Update) to see how they do it with what looks to be extremely revealing speakers - think I'm nuts on how good the panny sounds? I guess you'd have to include Newform Research too. I assume what the Behringer does - all in the digital domain - is sends top frequencies to the main 5.1 channels, bottoms to the rear 5.1 channels, and then you run the panasonic in 5.1 mode using the appropriate 4 channels of output. Could be wrong though, but that's my impression.
And, for the last time, compared to the HCA-2 I'm sure the panasonic is a mere mini-me, but I'd be surprised if the qualities were wholeheartedly, qualitatively different - I guess I'll see if the PS Audio poster comes by for a comparison of both on my 989's. Even then, nothing will diminish the fun I've had with my unit, nor will I like it any less or feel the joy it's brought in the last 2 months have been in vain. No way. Sure wish PS Audio would put the HCA-2 into a digital integrated though, but it's said to be on hold. I'd be first in line to audition it.
So, to the sure joy of all those flaming me left right and center, I'm shutting up on the panasonic, period - lest there be genuinely new topics, but I can't imagine what those could be any more, so silence it is. Flame away, I won't respond, so you have a free ticket.
A final note - here's the system I'm currently using while travelling, just to give the flamers more fuel to rip me apart - Panasonic XR25, PS Audio statement, cheap coax cable (Monster, $60 cdn) and quite cheap fatass monster cable speaker wire (strange stuff, looks fat but has hollow plastic tube in the middle - says "Monster Cable High Resolution Precision Standard Time Correct with Magnetic Flux tubes and LPE Dielectric" on it - whew!), and a monster cable optical - as you can see I was shopping at my local mass electronics store - and also using the massive 4 way speakers I bought when I was 16 - very large woofer, 5" midrange, 1" cone tweet, and some horn-type thing, on a tripod of tiptoes as is the panasonic, all on a massive fireplace brick footing raising them a perfect 1' off the floor. My speakers are 13' apart and 17' away, and routinely cast an image 6' outside each spaker, and right to my nose plus a couple feet behind the speakers, overall soundspace easily fills 25'w x 20'd of space (more or less - such is the size of the room I'm in) - not just with the occasional echo-y sound effect, all nicely and coherently connected across the whole space (although that didn't happen so beautifully until the Xtream Statement - click here for a review that's right on the money). Panasonic has 8 weeks breakin, but I'm told that's all in my head. I have no fear about putting the panny on my Quad 989's when I get home - to say I'm looking forward to it is an understatement.
Hope that's enough fuel for y'all flamin' types!I won't respond on this thread or any other, so flame with impunity... I'll be listening to 40 channels of digital music in the next room, with a big smile on my face.
