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So I only stream audio from sources like Spotify. No TT, CD, File Server. Current system is; ARC LS17SE, Harmon Kardon Cit-II rebuilt by Samara, Merlin TSM BME monitors, Mac Mini for internet source, Schitt Bifrost multi-bit. For what I'm doing, would I hear or not hear a performance enhancement by upgrading to an ARC LS27?
Follow Ups:
The LS27 I was looking at was at a great price. I made two offers knowing it was an overkill, but viewing the preamp as a long term investment in a piece of quality Audio Research equipment.
So under advisement I will be looking at a DAC with 4v output and higher quality streaming services.
But also now looking at a Kawasaki KLR650 motorcycle :)
Charlie-
there will not be much discernible difference between the LS-17SE and LS-27 as both are very similar in design. As you enjoy your ARC "SE" stick with it. Upon the many listening sessions that I have experienced w/ an ARC 'se' pre-amp, I much preferred it over a non-se model.
A better quality source will have much more impact than anything that comes after. Seems to be a lot of expense trying to polish something inferior.
I simply like the breadth of material and the randomness of what is available. My life is very structured and organized. So I love this randomness of what is played. Material I've previously heard and material I've never heard before. So I like just letting it rip as either background music or focused listening.
I guess my approach splits yours and that of library only approaches.
I use SiriusXM and various internet based radio stations as discovery vehicles. While I do add new content from time to time, my library is pretty much there.
I do enjoy, however, sometimes running the streamers that access my digital library on random to re-discover old friends and provide varied content.
I have a similar "Random play" approach here. I stream Amazon Music, Spotify, Pandora every now and then for background music around the house. And since my entire CD collection (not just my favorites) are now on the music server, I'm listening to tunes that I had previously not discovered or skipped over.
However, I'm still a bit confused on the O.P.'s need for high-end gear and a potential linestage upgrade for lossy streaming services that stream sub-CD quality.
For me I am locked into streaming. Nothing else. All I can say is that when I moved up from an ARC LS17 to the LS17SE there was definitely an improvement. And being a musician (although a hack, that's my slang for someone that has played a lot but is not a pro), I think I am qualified to make that claim. So what happens if I move up to a LS27? Yes a $2K DAC might offer greater improvement, but DAC's just come across as a volatile product area. What's in today is out tomorrow with some new approach.
True. IMHO, there have been more significant improvements in DACs in the past 10 years than amps, preamps, turntables, linestages, speakers, etc. That being said, outstanding new DACs can easily be had for $1000 +/-.
Not that you're asking but I would recommend better 'source' material before a new linestage, DAC, or any other component in your setup. Not sure what you mean by being "locked into streaming". Most of those streaming services are lossy and lo-res for the quality level of equipment you have. A music server with CD quality files on it, or even better 'streaming' via Tidal will really take advantage of your system.
Enjoy!
Agreed. Still have vinyl and CD's in the mix, but I enjoy streaming for the same reasons.....not to mention discovering unique artists I never knew existed.
"So I only stream audio from sources like Spotify."
then why do you need a preamp at all?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I did try running from the Mac Mini to the Bifrost DAC directly to the Amp. The sound quality just was not there compared to having the ARC Preamp in place. So I guess there is a general reason why you have a preamp. Your question seemed like a logical thing to do. I tried it. But it didn't work out well. Wish it had.
I tried that as well. Those older tube amps seem to really need or want a preamp in front of them. All the preamp is doing is buffering. At $6k or so that is a hell of a buffer?
Heck, throw out the offer to the seller. If he doesn't bite then nothing lost because you still have your amp. Then start looking into tweaking up your digital sources.
"All the preamp is doing is buffering"
Not true. That preamp has 24dB, 18dB, or 12dB of gain and a higher output impedance (350 ohms vs. less than 30 ohms) than his source.
So I would call it an "antibuffer with gain". :-)
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
The output impedance of the buffer (AD8512) of your DAC is less than 30 ohms.
There is no reason for it not to drive the cables and the input of the Cit2 just fine (probably better than your preamp).
So that leaves us with the volume control. If the DAC's volume control (or whatever volume you used when listening without the preamp) is digital then that could be a sonic problem. (lower the volume, lose bits, not good)
On the other hand, if the DAC's volume control is analog then what you are hearing (and liking) is the distortion of the preamp.
Harsh words but in the absents of some other reason for the sound to be compromised coming straight off the DAC vs. through the preamp, what other conclusion can we come to?
Do you hear a loss of sound quality turning the volume down using the DAC's volume control when playing through the preamp?
This can be tricky. Less volume always sounds poorer than more volume. Using the volume control on the preamp, keep the sound pressure level as you turn the DAC down while turning the preamp up.
If you decide that that doesn't hurt the overall sound then we're back to you liking the "color" that the preamp is adding.
"The best line stage preamp is no line stage preamp at all" (as long as the drive requirements present are meet by the signal source and you have a way of controlling the volume)
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Tre' you said "then what you are hearing (and liking) is the distortion of the preamp." What I like hearing is accurate reproduction of what professional instruments played by professionals actually sound like. I've had the benefit of playing next to a very large number of Professional Players on professional instruments (Concert Grand Piano's, Cello's, Violins, Drums, Brass Instruments, etc...). And I know what the subtle sounds of instruments are like (piano hammer and mechanical noise, guitar or cello player moving their fingers down the strings, trumpet valve noise). I can not argue with you from a technical approach what should work the best, but the ARC preamp in my system actually takes me closer to a professional instruments sound. And if moving from the LS17 to LS17SE moved me closer to that end, than will moving up to the LS27 take me even closer?
I have no idea. It's all subjective personal preference.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Harsh words but in the absence of some other reason for the sound to be compromised coming straight off the DAC vs. through the preamp, what other conclusion can we come to?
Rather firmly, too. And once participated in a thread with Charles Hanson on this topic.
That was until I heard really nice actives in my system and others. Why? Dunno. Now I find improved dynamics, both at the micro and macro level.
And sit corrected, Charlie. :)
How do you define "really nice"?
I look at all of this from a strictly technical point of view.
A circuit, any circuit, will add noise and distortion.
A line stage preamp will not, can not, make things technically better unless needed to satisfy impedance and drive requirements.
If the source meets those requirements on it's own then no line stage preamp will make things technically better.
Adding technically un-needed circuitry to a system can only make things worse.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
and you do need that IMO with that DAC. Id still upgrade to a better DAC. Do you think a $6K pre when new should be mated with a $399.00 DAC? Come on. Get a nice 4V out DAC and see what happens. Just get a loaner and see. Stop speculating. Its not all about input Z on the amp. Sensitivity is important too. 1.5V for full out......your are mistaken if you think your DAC magically takes whatever source material you play and puts out 2V. NO WAY>
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
Edits: 01/31/17
So as I look at Schiits DAC line, I have to get into a unit that has Balanced outputs to get 4v outputs. So this is going to put me at $1,250 or $2,300 (Gungnir with Multibit or YGGORASIL). So the ARC has Balanced inputs and outputs, but my amp doesn't have Balanced inputs. My understand was unless you are doing Balanced all the way through, don't bother. So is there another good DAC that has 4v out on the RCA's? Or is it OK just to run balanced into the preamp to get 4v? Side note, I just passed on the LS27.
How do you define "really nice"?
Hate to put a price tag on it, but the four I heard were around the $10k (or beyond) ballpark Charlie mentioned in the linked post. My SP20 meets that criteria. I used DACT stepped attenuators using JPS Labs wire and Cardas connectors for many years. Still have them if anyone is interested. They're in a really nice Par-Metal case.
A circuit, any circuit, will add noise and distortion.
And you can find multiple posts here where I stated exactly the same thing. :)
"Hate to put a price tag on it,..."
No no.
Tell me about the circuit, not the price tag.
"My SP20 meets that criteria"
I'm looking for a schematic but can't find one. I do see pictures on the inside. There's a lot going on in there.
I'm much more a "straight wire with gain" sort of guy.
"I used DACT stepped attenuators using JPS Labs wire and Cardas connectors for many years."
What is the value of those attenuators?
With resistive attenuators, too low a value can make it hard for some sources to drive. Too high a value and the output impedance can be too high to properly drive cable and input capacitances.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Tell me about the circuit, not the price tag.
The price tag mentioned by Charles does imply a number of factors: hand assembly, careful matching of active devices, use of highest quality wiring, passive devices (including solder) and multiple, ultra stiff power supplies.
I'm looking for a schematic but can't find one.
The line stage (as the SP20 also has a phono preamplifier) is similar to the LS27 which in turn is a refined version of the LS25 MKII found here . It is a zero feedback, Class A hybrid design.
There's a lot going on in there.
Ok. Aside from being a full function preamplifier, there are few bell and whistles. It does, however, offer remote operation, switchable phono loading and the line stage is switchable for headphone output.
What is the value of those attenuators?
10k as recommended by DACT.
While I run my DAC directly into the power amp with my garage system, I prefer using a high quality preamp in the main system for optimum sound quality. BTW, John Atkinson also mentioned the quandary he also experiences with the notion of improved sound quality using an active stage with Hanson's KX-R:
" To my astonishment, the sound of my system with a Transporter D/A processor feeding the preamplifier was better than when the DAC fed the power amplifier directly. Through the KX-R, images sounded more tangible, and the sound was better focused, despite the signal's having been passed through not just another set of interconnects but also through the preamp's input and output socketry, switches, a volume control, printed circuit-board traces, and active and passive parts. Logically, you'd think that having nothing in the signal path would have less of a degrading effect than so many somethings. But no, that was not what I heard, much as I would have preferred otherwise."
Well said John!
if we assume Mikey left it stock the input impedance on the duece is a meg but it needs 1.5 volts for full out. The Bifrost is listed as a max out of 2V @75 ohms. So it is likely that on most CDs he often cant even drive the amp to full out. Not good. You want to be able to always drive the amp to full out plus 6dB in my opinion active or passive. If he listens to classical, jazz or other less or non compressed recordings then I see a problem.
I'm a passive user and have a DAC that does 2.35VRMS @50 ohms. My amps need only a volt for full out and I have many CDs that cannot drive the amps to full out with my Placette all the way up. Luckily my speakers are 91dB efficient and in my biamp I can do 250/ch LF, 100/ch HF.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
CD's and digital files are normalized. The loudest moments will be at full digital level regardless of the dynamics of the music.2 volts will drive his deuce to beyond full power.
"You want to be able to always drive the amp to full out plus 6dB in my opinion active or passive"
Why? I do my best to never over drive any stage of my system.
Bad things happen when a tube is over driven.
I know some amps are rated for so called "headroom" but 6db would be 4 times the rated power. 240 watts per channel? I can't imagine how distorted that would be for the deuce.
I'm I missing something?
Edit; I reread your post.
"..if we assume Mikey left it stock the input impedance on the duece is a meg but it needs 1.5 volts for full out. The Bifrost is listed as a max out of 2V @75 ohms."
Do you think the Bifrost will not output 2 volts into 1 meg ohm?
It will. The higher the impedance it has to drive, the easier for it.
It's own source impedance dominates but technically the higher the input impedance, the higher the output voltage will be. Not lower.
In practice, because it's own output impedance dominates the equation, the output voltage will be virtually the same.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 01/28/17
You are assuming every CD you play outputs 2V. My post says they dont because they dont. You should measure that and see how seldom even a volt comes out of your DAC. When you had a cassette deck were the VU meters always at zero? No seldom or never. When they were at -6db if zero db is full out (2V) then -6 is a volt.
Also in my post I told you my higher out, lower Z DAC than yours very seldom (meaning almost never) drive my amps that need only a volt for full power to put out their full power.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
I have a couple thoughts on the topic. Not meant to offend but...
- You're not getting the most out of your equipment now given the limitations of streaming less than CD quality via Spotify.
- Based strictly on my experiences with the older LS25mkII vs LS16mkII (both similar in design), I'd say you probably won't hear much of a difference between the LS17SE vs the LS27. They are also very similar in design.
So if I had some extra coin burning a hole in my pockets, I'd look to improving the source files, streaming service, and source components before buying a similar linestage to what you already have.
And I would upgrade the DAC too. Shiit's Bifrost is good but if you are digital only Charlie you need a better DAC.
Remember in any mode your sound is only as good as the source recording.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
Another good point which I've been thinking about. So I have asked myself is it good item to buy that I will be pleased with, or do I have some Winter Blues and I'm just looking for something to buy to fill an emotional need/itch? The unfortunate dynamic is that the specific LS27 I'm looking at will only be available for just so long before someone else takes it. Hummm. I tend to set drop dead dates for activities. So I've already scribbled down Tuesday as a date to make an offer or settle back down. I don't think it will be a bad decision, but concerned maybe not the best. Thank you for the input.
I understand when someone asks about component X and gets a reply recommending Y instead. However, with your specific application either ARC unit may be unnecessary.
The MZ2 was designed by David Berning primarily as a headphone amplifier and built by LTA. But now many owners report it is the best line stage they've heard when only one or two source inputs are needed. I have two friends who own one and they can't quit gushing. The bonus is the headphone output if that might be of any interest to you.
"The piano ain't got no wrong notes." Thelonious Monk
That's me and you're right. I think I'm going with E-Stat and upgrade the source material. The ARC is just fine.
Those units are remarkably similar designs, varying primarily by features and power supply. You're already not taking advantage of the balanced output capability of the 17.
Unless you got a fabulous deal on the 27, I pass. Or, upgrade the DAC instead.
I am in fact looking at a good buy on a LS27, which I feel I could get a good share of my funds back out of if I ever sold it. So I'm viewing it as a relatively safe investment. I liked the improvement from my original LS17 to the LS17SE, and was able to do very well on the sale of the LS17. So my thinking is that if I bumped up to the LS27 I might end up with a bigger smile. But than the Preamp would definitely be the most expensive in my system. So I'm pausing to ask the forum if this is a reasonable thing to do given I can get a good buy. And than I have the question, at what point are my system components capabilities simply limited or choked by the audio source, streaming internet music?
Buy, borrow or steal a high end source. Such as a good turntable and phono stage and listen to what your system is capable of with a better source. It will probably be an ear opening experience.
Passed my Thorens TD 124 with a Black Widow arm to my brother and sold my pristine Empire 698. Yes a TT would sound great, but not going back.
Ahh perfect, only suggested it to determine that DAC is your weak link. Which as others have posted, probably is.
Yeah, they may be right. I just went back to Schiit Audio and looked at their YGGDRASIL DAC for $2,299. DAC's just strike me as a product that keeps changing, and consequently any investment you make in one seems to be at high risk.
I agree with you, I tried some DAC's years ago and gave up. Then a few months ago I started following the digital forums here and for the same reasons, ease, variety etc., bought one that had been recommended by Abe and others as being a good DAC for about $1,000. It is OK. I use it a lot, but mainly for background music.
I'm currently also using updated Citation 11, and had the same experience with passive vs active preamps, but the passive preamp experience was also many years ago. What I am hoping is that some of the magic we hear from preamps will start to show up in the DAC's, but it will probably be an expensive chase in the interim.
So I'm currently using a Schiit Bifrost Multibit w/USB Gen2 ($750 invested plus tax and shipping). For a major DAC upgrade I would need to go to a Schiit YGGDRASIL at $2,300. So if I can sell my current DAC for say $400 that would be approximately a $1,900+ cost to upgrade the DAC. Again, Ahhhh.
If there is any way that you can hear some different DAC's on a good system, or better yet, try them on your system, it would help you to make a sound (sorry couldn't help myself) decision. Audio stores are few and far between but some of the ones here allow you to take something home to try it. Maybe someplace would let you pay for shipping and do that with a used or demo unit?
Try crutchfield. They have a 30 day return policy and a Marantz NAx004
Do some posting in the digital forum. DON'T rush into buying something just because you need to scratch that audio itch.
Half the fun, or mania as I call it, is the hunt.
Research a little more first.
Little audio secret. Usually the higher end stuff a company offers is usually almost the same as the lower end stuff they offer. Just a few more bells, whistles and parts. But basically the same!!!!!
I wouldn't invest bookoo bucks in a DAC but I would find a good one to use. I've been using the Marantz NA7004 for several years now. It sound great with a good quality streaming internet channel.
However it claims it incorporates other digital devices. But every time I try using it with my CDP digital and some memory stick file types it can be picky. But it does use my iphone's digital out with no problem.
Get a good DAC but don't go nuts. It's an ever changing technology and corporations are still trying to grab the entire market. But the Marantz is about the best sounding DAC on the market and the internet stations are great.
If you use the premium service, presumably that offers Redbook resolution. While I find higher resolution offers higher fidelity, most of my digital library is CD based. That shouldn't be much of a limitation.
Spotify Premium is nice -- I listen to it -- but it streams at 320 kbps vs. CDs at 1440 kbps
providers like Spotify call compressed content "High Definition". :)
I was misled when I visited their website and know that Tidal does support CD quality.
If I had the HK Citii and using all digital sources I would use a Conrad Johnson preamp. You want neutral and transparent as your main quality. A GOOD preamp should have NOT be heard.
the HK will add all the "flavor" and now all you need is something to buffer the sources properly. Don't go to crazy - get a preamp that does what a preamp should do - nothing but buffer properly.
Once you hear a truly transparent preamp like a CJ you will have a hard time using anything else.
I was originally looking at the CJ preamp line. Came across a used ARC LS17 instead which I greatly enjoyed. And than moved to the SE variant, which I liked even more. Unfortunately, there are no local CJ dealers to borrow a unit from to audition.
more tubey like go with Conrad Johnson. ARC tube equipment are one of the most neutral sounding out there.
If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing well
(Proverb)
Edits: 01/28/17
I have no idea where or how you could say the new line of CJ is tubey. Actually that was the first thing that originally threw me for a loop was how NOT tubey it was. The Classic 2SE I have is dead balls on linear and transparent. Tubey it is NOT!
The 6H30 tubes are a troublesome love hate tube. The original Russian version that first catapulted (mainly self advertising and hype) the 6h30 stock to fame are no longer in production and no longer available. Since then it seems a lot of people have been chasing their tails with this tube.
Me personally, I would get gear with difficult tubes.
I don't find any "hate" relationship with current Russian Reflektor 6H30 production as found in top end Audio Research, BAT and Conrad-Johnson gear, despite the notion that NOS military stuff was better.
I haven't found the need to spend any time "rolling" them in my SP20. I just continue enjoying a much higher level of resolution than my previous preamp with both vinyl and digital sources. :)
I think Reflektor IS the one that is not longer available????
Both were/are produced in the same plant in Saratov.
DR production ceased when it closed in 1992. It was later reopened in 1999 and once again makes the 6H30.
I have no experience with recent CJ but the older stuff was 'tubey' sounding to me. ;-) But like I said, I haven't heard any of their new stuff.
The love hate relationship with the 6H30 puzzles me. I haven't found a preamp that sounds 'right' with this tube based on my limited experience. I'm sure good ones exist but.... The ARC that I had were too lean clean with little weight or warmth in the mids. Some call it neutral but regardless, I can get that sound in almost any ss preamp.
On the other hand, the BAT preamps that I've had or auditioned all sounded a slight bit dark / rich but not a lot of top end. These ARC and BAT all use the 6H30 but they sound very different. Go figure.
I preferred the Aesthetics Calypso and the Cary SLP-05. Neither use the 6H30 tube and both are more pleasant to my ears.
Abe-
Conrad Johnson really took a much-improved turn for the better and modern w/ the ACT & ART series of pre-amp. Currently, the ET-3SE is certainly no slouch. We both enjoy Aesthetix Calypso, especially, the Signature edition.
So many excellent pre-amps...so little time.
It might be time for me to have a change of heart with CJ gear. I'd have to take a listen to their newer products.
If you've owned the Calypso or Calypso Signature I'd love to get your impression of it vs some recent CJ preamps.
Yup, we have many more choices today than ever.
Abe-
I tried to send a PM to you?
JA FANT Esq.
fantja@gmail.com
Right On! Abe-
the newer/current CJ gear is outstanding, as well as, Aesthetix.
While CJ does not suggest tube-rolling, Aesthetix will have an upper hand for tube rollers. I remember reading your many posts on tube rolling your Calypso.
but if anything, I've always found the C-J sound to be a bit more caramel in tonal flavor while ARC is pretty much dead neutral. I think you already have a good complement to your traditional sounding tube amplifier.
I don't know of anyone who considers the 6H30 to offer a "tubey" sound. :)
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