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In Reply to: RE: Got my new space heater today! posted by JoshT on January 20, 2017 at 14:05:57
Nice. And contrary to some opinions, Philips had some nice and reliable pieces of gear while they were still made in Holland.
I am curious about CJ MV60SE. It is not integrated, others mentioned are, what pre did you use it with? I had Rogue Stereo 90 which is great amp but ultimately replaced it with CJ MV60SE that I love way more. Can you compare CJ to Cronus?
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"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."
Follow Ups:
Yes, I should clarify. I didn't audition the MV60SE this time around or for this system. I auditioned it for another system about 7 years ago. The preamp was a CJ Premier 17LS (series 1) and the speakers were B&W CDM1SEs. I was comparing the MV60SE to my CJ solid state MF2250 to see if all tubes was the way to go for me.
To me, at least in that system, the MV60SE sounded hyper detailed and somewhat dry. I still kind of enjoyed it, but when I put the MF2250 back into the system the next day, I realized how much more I liked it. It seemed more balanced, neutral and even liquid to me, which really surprised me.
So, there shouldn't have been any system compatibility issue. That said, many folks have been surprised by my impressions, and some have suggested that the power tubes might not have been biased properly or might have been old and ready for replacement, and that is possible. It was a demo unit at my local dealer.
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"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
First to put disclaimer that I do not like B&W sound. And more drivers they have my opinion of them is worse.
Particular speakers sounded bright and uneven to me even with very mellow Metronome CDP with Plinius when I heard them years ago. Due to uneven impedance of the speaker, any tube amp would most likely make it even more unbalanced.
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"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."
I agree on B&W speakers. I came to realize that, at least in the various systems I heard their different models in, the drivers didn't integrate well, they didn't image well, and they were tipped up in the upper mids. I tried to like the CDM1SEs, but sold them to a friend after a few years, and he sold them less than a year later.That said, mine were 2 way stand mounted speakers and sounded decent enough with the Premier 17LS and MF2250. With the MV60SE, they became unlistenable (to me anyway).
I'd love to hear it in a different system because I loved the original MV60 with the EL34s but never heard it in that system. When I heard it in another system, it sounded magical.
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"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
Edits: 01/23/17
Wow, interesting and almost eerie how your experiences are very close to my own.
I've never heard the MV-60SE but I owned the CJ Premier 11a and the CJ MF2250A. I didn't find the Premier 11a to be dry but overall I thought the MF2250A was more tonally balanced. The Premier 11a had more of that '3-dimensional soundstage' though.
I'd be curious to get your take on the MV60SE vs the Rogue Stereo 90.
I think the sound of those amps is greatly influenced by the preamps ahead of them. Were you using the same preamp with each power amp?
That being said, I actually prefer the Cronus Magnum Integrated (with it's internal preamp) to the Stereo 90 that I had which was driven directly by a DAC that had variable output level.
I suppose the Stereo 90 driven directly by the DAC should have been more transparent, and maybe it was. But the overall setup seemed a little lean especially in the mids, compared to the Cronus Magnum. I like a bit more of that warm 'tuby' sound. Some say the Cronus Magnum is not very 'tuby' sounding. I guess that's a matter of opinion too and where you're coming from.
With Rogue I have used several premps that I can remember. Musical Fidelity CD Pre24, Acurus RL11?!?, Myriad MP100 and VTL finally 2.5.
I do not find Stereo 90 bright but neutral, like good SS. But, it is sensitive to tubes rolling and I recall that it became bright when using Electro-Harmonix even more when partnered with the same or Sovtek (12AX7LPS?!?, 6SN7 Sylvania) diver tubes. Neutral with SED 6550 and Tungsol driver rubes, on the softer side the same with Myllard NOS 12AX7. Can not remember that I used it other than SED and EH power tubes, but I tried various 12AX7 and 6SN7, Tungsol, Myllard, Matsushita, Sovtek, Sylvania, RCA...
I tried driving various amps, including amps discussed, directly with various DACS, phono preamps and was never happy. Sound seemed cleaner, but ultimately never right; usually boring, bleached, missing a soul.
With CJ I used VTL 2.5 only. I love it very much. I am sorry that I will repeat their motto, but it just sounds right. There is just rightness in timbre, dynamics coherence, sound stage, flow, and hart of the music. I can not say that bass is this, mid is that, treble such and such, it is one of the amps that makes everything fit together right.
CJ is not what people imagine thinking of old CJ amps with EL34 tubes, presuming stock tubes. It can be made somewhat warmer or leaner by swapping tubes but it never changes basic character, you can say that it is less sensitive than Stereo 90 to tube rolling.
If I have to describe, MV60SE in comparison to Stereo 90 has more body and better coherence, even when CJ is in UL and 90 in triode mode.
For those who like tubier sound, they can use EL34 in MV60SE (they are the same amps but set for different tuber, can be converted to either) and I presume switching to triode. Drawback is that it requires "surgery".
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"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."
Thanks.
Are you saying the CJ MV60SE is the one with more body and fuller & richer sound vs the Stereo 90 ?
And the Stereo 90 more toward neutral vs the CJ ?
The Premier 11a I had was nice but I always felt it was light in the bass compared to some other tube amps.
Hard to describe by words. Both are generally neutral sounding just that CJ more body and right timbre while not sounding warm.
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"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."
That leanness may obviously have been the lack of an active pre-amp. Or a difference in tube types and ages.
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