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In Reply to: RE: Merrill Audio Taranis first listen (Hypex Ncore) posted by mkuller on February 09, 2016 at 10:38:40
... Is that it means lacking in 2nd and/or possibly 3rd order harmonic distortion.
So, for example, putting a 2nd order HD-injecting preamp makes the "sterile" sound amp sound "better".
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich
Follow Ups:
You realize that it is high order harmonics that are the ones that make things unpleasant, don't you? You realize that the human brain wants to hear a pattern of harmonics that mimics what a natural harmonic structure in nature and in fact what the ear itself generates?
On the one hand you are partially right, the absence of 2nd and 3rd order harmonics is one sign that an amp might sound sterile; however, it is a side effect of the removal of those harmonics through the use of negative feedback and the multiplication of higher order harmonics that results. Also, the ear/brain expects to see a natural pattern that it then effectively masks...the high orders stand out in contrast as they are not masked.
It takes quite high levels of 2nd order harmonic to be audible and it also depends greatly on the frequency (for example a 2nd harmonic of a 30Hz tone will be inaudible probably up to 10%) but the general literature consensus is between 1 and 2% in a sensitive frequency range. Almost no amps (including SETs) have this much distortion when operated within their rated power bands.
Keep in mind also the tolerance increases with increasing SPL...so even though a SET might have more than 1% at their rated power (eg. 10 watts), with a high sensitivity speaker 10 watts will give a very loud level and 1% 2nd order will remain inaudible. At 1 watt, most SETs are well below 1% and thererfore also inaudible 2nd order...what they LACK at 1 watt is an excessive ratio of high order harmonics.
Good SETs will have a monotonic distortion pattern (exponential decay with increasing harmonic order) so that at low power they literally have no high order harmonics and that comes in with increasing power, which tracks well with the masking effects that SPL have for audibility.
It's hard to believe that it's entirely that the tube preamps have less high-order harmonics that s/s -- which, in any case, they often do not.
There's no dispute from me that high-order sounds bad, but it's hard to believe that 0.001% of high-order sounds bad while 1-2% of 2nd order is inaudible. Reports that this is so might be an artifact of testing. I would like to know about testing that specifically treats my hypothesis that such levels of 2nd order disguise say, 0.1 or less of high-order.
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich
Sufficiently powerful tube amps are not inexpensive. It took me a while to get there while settling for using tubes at the preamp level only.
Back in the early 1950s, D.E.L Shorter had already proposed a model for harmonics where the weighting of a harmonic was based on the SQUARE of its order. Later, this was found not to be sufficient to capture the impact of the orde of the harmonic. So, why is it so hard to believe? Just because you think it's a small number? Read Pass's thoughts on these things. Transistors can work well if treated right but not Class D, IMO. A good pre will pass the signal with less high order crap...it can also be transistor but there are a lot fewer really good ones from transistors and they are very expensive.
1-2% 2nd order THD is audible.
2nd harmonics are musically related and reinforce the fundamental (aka 1st harmonic) thereby creating false perceived detail.
Some people like that.
Show me a modern tube preamp with anywhere close to 1% 2nd order distortion and I will show you a broken preamp. Go look at stereophile measurements and Soundstage measurements. Tube preamps mostly measure very low in distortion but it is usually only low order.
Ask Feanor, he's the one who brought it up.
Personally I don't care enough for tubes to look anything up. I want accurate rather than euphonic and if that is your aim tubes have no place in the replay chain. Love tubes in instrument amps though because because in that application their shortcomings become an asset.
There were a lot of reasons audio transitioned to solid state. Absolute sound quality was not one of them. The early transistor amps sounded awful, it took quite some time to improve their sound quality.
For a broader view of the subject, read the following link provided. Check out the "distortion under test" sidebar. Very interesting.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
So the guy seems to be claiming that individual tubes have a lower noise floor and THD comparable to transistors.
If that is the case how come that when built into an amp tubes measure so abysmally?
Are tube amp designers stupid while those who design transistor amps are able to perform miracles given that my entire (power) amp measures better than his individual transistors?
Or may be he deliberately chose particularly bad transistors to promote his own business.
And yes the author of the original article is correct when he says that tubed gear is popular in studios. That is because tubes are euphonic and thus become part of the artistic process.
He is also correct that tube compressor prices have rocketed. This is because the main offenders in the Loudness Wars, the Lorde-Alge brothers, create their excessive compression using banks of those tube compressors and eqs.
But they go after their specific sound if you want accurate the choice will always be transistors or digital over tubes.
Not all amps measure abysmally and even if they do, so what? Can you show me where there is a strong correlation between non-specific THD and sound quality? I can show you some results that show that there is no correlation between low THD and sound quality. That is because what most people (including engineers) think is important is not really so important for sound quality.
That being said, preamps with tubes often measure just as good transistor preamps. The data is out there, just look.
The biggst problem with tube amps is often the output transformer not being adequate. With a good output transformer and within the actual powerband of the amp the distortion is reasonably low with a good design. It is not transistor low becuase little or no negative feedback is used. Look at that same transistor amp without feedback and if it is even stable you will see MUCH higher distortion...it is inherently non-linear and being forced to behave (more or less) with feedback. However, htere is a price to be paid for this and it can be heard sonically by careful (or often even not so careful) listening.
Cant we all just get along ..:)Audio: Where one mans Euphoria is anothers anathema ....
Speaking of ,
"Another audio expert--Bruce Rozenblit, the owner of Transcendent Sound Co., Kansas City, Mo., and a well-known designer of tubed amplifiers--said he sees the output transformer as a major factor behind tube sound: "The warmth is created by a large component of second-order distortion, and the slow rise time of the output transformer causes a coloration that I would describe as a smoothing effect...the transformer is a nonlinear element that causes alterations of the signal in the time and frequency domains, thereby altering the sound."
So its Euphonic
The End
Lol :)
Edits: 02/14/16
The assertion that tubes are euphonic and only solid state is accurate is simply not valid across the board. While some tube circuits can be euphonic, many solid state amps sound shrill, strident, and anything but accurate.
The link was a summary of the previous article that wasn't included in the reprint.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
And yet many prefer CLass-D to SET's ... go figure ........ :)
... I suspect a lot of people like more distortion 2nd or maybe 3rd order.
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich
I'm not convinced of that. The D-sonic M1500s(pascal modules) have pretty much the same ridiculously low distortion figures, and flat FR as other Class D amps, but it is quite warm and not sterile sounding. Surprisingly so. Something else must be going on.
Jack
Most of the sound differences are in the input stage, and these are different across manufacturers.I have a NAD M22 (nCore) I previously used a Trio C-100 (ICE), and compared to an AB amp.
AB amp (Anthem internal in receiver) got less clear and more annoying in violins in some louder parts (hypothesis; that may be the crossover disotrION)
Trio C-100 and NAD sounded better, and sounded the same across volume levels. To me, they sounded identical in almost all aspects except the M22 had more extended high-frequency response. The C-100 was a bit 'truncated'.
Edits: 02/12/16
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