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In Reply to: RE: I believe it is true for you, but clearly not for everyone else...nt posted by morricab on November 08, 2015 at 07:44:10
We are wasting each other's time. I have owned a well respected SET amp (845). I have listened to others. I have not heard one that was what I call a full range amp. I have not heard one that fulfilled my audio needs. Same for single driver speakers. Good push pull tube amps have met my needs. That's it.
Follow Ups:
Both of my SETs deliver full power to 20hz or below...so I don't know what you mean by full-range but that is what I call full range. They roll off above 30Khz at the high end.
If you are happy with what you have nothing more needs to be said but IMO you are misrepresenting a whole class of amps because of some examples that you had that were not "full range". Your subjective comments I don't care so much about but your comment about the range covered by a good set is not based so much on fact.
Most of them don't produce enough power to generate the lower frequencies. It is simple physics. Most SETS are Model A cars compared to modern cars. Far too many limitations I refuse to live with. There are many SS and Tube amps that are equal or better with far more power without all the limitations.
"Most of them don't produce enough power to generate the lower frequencies. "
What a load of BS! The generation of low frequencies has nothing to do with the amps power output per se. If the output transformer is not good then the amp might not produce full power at low frequencies due to core saturation or how it is wound but this is not the same thing as you are saying.
"There are many SS and Tube amps that are equal or better with far more power without all the limitations."
I haven't heard a push pull tube or SS amp yet that can outperform a good SET...not one. They might have more power but that is all that they have that is more...certainly not sound quality.
Thanks for the good laugh on the transformer statement. I guess the power supply and power output don't mean much? The tranny needs to have the bandwidth but it also needs enough drive. The SET is a Model A. It needs the right conditions to work. I do get a kick out the all the effort to make them more powerful to actually widen it. I have seen some amazing tubes once relegated to commercial transmission being utilized.
You are right. I have not heard a world beater SET amp. I have also not seen a unicorn or little green man from another world. I remain convinced that the majority of highly rated speakers available today cannot be properly driven with the lower powered SET amps discussed here.
"I guess the power supply and power output don't mean much?"
How is this relevant to output transformers? Last time I checked the output transformer is not considered to be part of the power supply. FWIW, power supply matters a lot and power output not so much.
"The tranny needs to have the bandwidth but it also needs enough drive"
It is obvious about the bandwidth but what the hell do you mean by drive? Do you mean that it has to be big enough not to saturate? If that is what you mean then that is obvious too. If it is not what you meant then you better explain yourself.
"I remain convinced that the majority of highly rated speakers available today cannot be properly driven with the lower powered SET amps discussed here.
"
Again, irrelevant unless you are a crack-addicted speaker roller (there are plenty of gear junkies who might agree with you). There are plenty of highly rated speaekers that will work wonderfully and that is sufficient. I will give you a tip on one top conventional speaker that works wonders with a SET...the original Wilson X1 Grand SLAMM and the MK3 version...apparently the XLF too (given that they often show with LAMM SETS). I have firsthand experience with a lot speakers that are driven very well with SETs, including those that would not be obvious given their lowish sensitivity. Load seems to be more critical than sensitivity.
"How is this relevant to output transformers? Last time I checked the output transformer is not considered to be part of the power supply"LOL. Well without going into details, you don't have a amp without the three components. They also define the limitations.
"Again, irrelevant unless you are a crack-addicted speaker roller (there are plenty of gear junkies who might agree with you). There are plenty of highly rated speaekers that will work wonderfully and that is sufficient. I will give you a tip on one top conventional speaker that works wonders with a SET...the original Wilson X1 Grand SLAMM and the MK3 version...apparently the XLF too (given that they often show with LAMM SETS). I have firsthand experience with a lot speakers that are driven very well with SETs, including those that would not be obvious given their lowish sensitivity. Load seems to be more critical than sensitivity."
You miss the Model A reference. Why should I have the limitations when I can get a amp that will drive all speakers and sound just as good?
I have linked to the tests by stereophile of the Lamm SET. Notice the distortion graphs.
Edits: 11/12/15
"Well without going into details, you don't have a amp without the three components"
OTLs do just fine without the "third" component...go figure.
THere is nothing in the Lamms measurements to suggest anything other than an outstanding sounding amp, which has been nearly univerally acknowledged as such. Have you heard this amp?? I have and it is very good.
"OTLs do just fine without the "third" component...go figure"
OTL's? I thought this discussion was about SETS? Weak
"THere is nothing in the Lamms measurements to suggest anything other than an outstanding sounding amp, which has been nearly univerally acknowledged as such. Have you heard this amp?? I have and it is very good."
I would hope it sounds good. It better for $34,000. It measures like most SET amps where I have seen test data. Low power, higher distortion characteristics. Those qualities I find limiting. I might or might not have heard this amp? It would have been at a show where conditions are not usually optimal.
It actually measures much better than most SETs...but since you don't seem to get it...
" and sound just as good?"
Because this part is wrong.
" and sound just as good?"
Because this part is wrong.
I think it safe to say we don't agree on this point.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
Actuality it looks better than you would think, notice how the THD rises gradually with output , this is how distortion is presented to us in nature, its natural for us to hear as such, this kind of distortion curve will give an amplifier a natural sound within limits.
JA used to do ms power burst to measure an amplifiers ability to output dynamic power into varying loads, it would be nice to see one done on this SET.BTW and FYI, Steve over on Wallet Big Forum (WBF), uses one to power his Wilsons, no one hearing his setup has complained about lack of bass or dynamics..
Regards..
Go Rossi ......
Edits: 11/12/15
nt
try it! you know you want to!
looks reasonable at 2.83v , you see sumting .. ? I'm more concerned with the 10K SqW , maybe not something for ESL's :)
Go Rossi ......
Edits: 11/12/15
"shows that the THD doesn't change significantly with increasing frequency, though it does increase alarmingly as the load impedance halves."
Flat, load independent frequency response is important....
try it! you know you want to!
Because of output tap, just keep the output tap lower than lowest Zmin and you are good and since its at the very extremes, it may not be audible when listening, especially if you are using limited bandwidth speakers or those overstuffed pint sized subs going to 20 hz .You know, the ones walking across the room when reproducing a pipe organ..
:)
Go Rossi ......
Edits: 11/12/15
nt
try it! you know you want to!
BTW, all amps have increase distortion with lower Z loads, whats important is the balance and PSU size, even Bruno have to give into that one ...
:)
Go Rossi ......
nt
try it! you know you want to!
I guess he also doubts Max, never had any issues with mine with bass or anything bandwidth wise really, you have to pay attn to speaker impedance in the bass region for sure and i know many using them with no issues with bass, for sure they dont deliver Bass like a Krell , few does..There are bad SS designs and there are bad tooby designs, so experiences will vary of course, you have determined they are not for you, they are not for me anymore due to current speakers and room choice...
regards..
Go Rossi ......
Edits: 11/10/15 11/10/15
Of course load needs to be a consideration...although sensitivity not as much depending on the listening levels needed.
Personally, I wouldn't want Krell like bass unless I had a seriously underdamped speaker. With a properly damped speaker the Krells make a one-note(ish) kind of bass...more thud than texture.
I could actually simulate this when I had Infinity IRS Betas, which have variable Q in their bass controller. You could dial in super tight...way overdamped to very loose. One might argue that it was Krell bass on one side and a bad SET on the other. I found if I put a tube amp on the bass that either right at Q = 0.7 or slightly tighter was preferred but with a big SS amp I would want it closer to 0.9.
Never heard any Krell make a one note-ish bass, maybe the small ones , i never tried one of those.
Go Rossi ......
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