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In Reply to: RE: I believe it is true for you, but clearly not for everyone else...nt posted by A.Wayne on November 04, 2015 at 18:20:20
Reconcile what?
I think that Rogue offers a much better value than ARC. But perhaps I should give another listen. I dont like push-pull designs typically.
I havent heard all of Cary's deigns but their treatment of the 300B is seriously lacking. When people talk negatively about the 300B tube it is because of manufacturers like Cary.
With the right speakers OTL is perhaps the best design IMO.
Follow Ups:
I am not impressed at all with what I hear from ARC amps. Rogue I don't have so much experience with and I owned a pair of Cary CAD-572SE, which weren't bad at all but definitely not the ultimate.
Most of these companies, despite their pedigree, cheap out a bit with the all too important output transformers. The OLD ARC tube amps had HUGE output transformers and weighed a ton. The newer ones have puny transformers. Rogues are also largely undersized. Cary too...
As a comparison, I have a JJ-322, which is a parallel 300B set. It weighs over 90lbs. (42Kg) and a big part of that weight is the quite large double C core output iron. They weight about 7 or 8 Kg each, which is a lot for a 300B transformer. Bass is weigthy but more importantly very nicely textured. Stringed bass instruments and lower registers on piano sound very realistic. A SETs bass capabilities and high frequencies really depend on the output iron...skimp there and get a mediocre amp.
I have tried serious OTL designs and while the intial transparency is breathtaking...ultimately the push/pull nature comes through and they don't sound as coherent.
The best sounding push/pull amp I have heard is a VAC 30/30 MKIII that I once owned...but ultimately I thought my SETs were better still.
So you have no Experience with the Cary 805B and ARC on a whole , yet you are willing to condemn them as the problem with toobs.. :)
OTL's is the way to go , but they have serious limitations, the speakers set the amplifiers, not the other way around, find the right SOTA speakers and chances are you will be well ahead in the game.
Ask Paul McGowan.. :)
Any other words you want to put into my mouth?
I have a great deal of experience with ARC both at shows and at 2 friends homes. Nothing special and certainly not even close to the best I heard using push pull. Overpriced for what you get IMO. Listen to the CAT amps sometime.
Do I have to hear every model in a product line before I can make a statement about a "house" sound? I have never heard a Cary product that I liked. I seriously doubt the 805A will be any different but I admit I havent heard this model. Slow and slovenly sounding compared with Tron or Border Patrol to give 2 examples. Feeding the power tubes properly in SET amps is critical.
I have owned over 6 S.S. amps in the last few years and at least 5 tubed (both ultra linear, P.P. and SET). I have had at least another 6 amps in my house for repair, inspection or audition. I have been listening seriously to 2 channel for over 28 years and attend just about every show. None of this makes my opinion any more significant, but dont believe that it is an opinion based on anything but experience.
OTLs are the best I have heard but I have never owned a speaker that worked properly with them and I refuse to use an auto-former.
For the record I dont think that ARC, Cary or Rogue products are the problem with tubes. I do feel that products from these manufacturers help reinforce the negative generalizations often associated with tube amplifiers.
Yes, the CAT JL-2 signature is pretty good as well (I didn't mention it in my post above); however, my friend who owned one also had a NAT SE2SE MK II that ultimately we found to sound superior to it on his big Apogees.
I'm not putting words , you stated you may need to listen to more ARC , implying what? you also stated you did not hear the 805B, yet you commented on them and if you have any experience as stated , you know you cant just hook an SET to any speaker.
As to ARC, I'm not a big fan myself, as VTL, toobs need to be matched to speakers more so than SS, so it takes time to fully say , No. The Cary 805B with the right speaker is no slouch.
I would only be interested in toobs again , if i get one of these ...
Just saying ...
If done right you can even power amp-eaters like the old Infinity speakers with an SET. These dip to 1.6 ohms impedance at one point in the FR! Here's mine in action for a local audio club get-together at my place:
Edits: 11/05/15 11/05/15
So get one... and then invite me over to hear your Vinage horns with toobies... :)
OTL's are about the best amps if used with the right speaker! Transparent, quick, breathtaking! (IMHO)
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