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In Reply to: RE: Obviously posted by E-Stat on November 04, 2015 at 07:27:06
"we have very different perspectives on what constitutes the sound of live, unamplified music."
perhaps.
"My judgement relies upon critical listening to the entire experience as compared to a live reference, not upon the analysis of a sine wave."
I get that you prefer the subjective approach and I didn't mean to imply that I think you are wrong about anything at all. I just wish I had a little better understanding of the mindset behind the decision making process.
My concern is that the wide range of possible recording and production approaches might be too much to cover with a single amp which has some desirable aspect, beyond gain, only available at a fixed intensity.
Follow Ups:
...perhaps.
Perhaps you might describe a live musical venue you would use as a reference.
I get that you prefer the subjective approach
I'm an observationalist.
I just wish I had a little better understanding of the mindset behind the decision making process.
Contrary to Tony's assertion that I have a "total disregard for science", I have a healthy appreciation for applying science where the metrics used correlate to that which is being measured. My speakers and bass traps were carefully placed after much experimentation and measuring the FR results. That yielded a very neutral result in the critical bottom octaves, both on paper and audibly. You'll find a third octave plot in my gallery. I precisely set the bias on my amps using measurements proven to yield the best performance. Did that just last week when I retubed. I made initial settings and repeated the process four hours later requiring some changes. Measurements are great when causation and relevancy is established.
On the other hand, I fully appreciate what "science" cannot tell you about an audio component's performance envelope. If you recall, Mike's observation was about dimensionality. Unfortunately, there are no metrics that correlate to the perception of soundstage and imaging. Frequent contributor here and editor of Stereophile John Atkinson is hardly antagonistic towards measuring gear having performed a thorough suite of measurements on literally hundreds of components over the past several decades. Here's his take on that topic found in the closing paragraph of the Ayre KX-R20 review :
"...which means one needs to focus on such higher-order qualities as the presentation of the soundstage and the accuracy of the imaging, neither of which can be measured."
My concern is that the wide range of possible recording and production approaches might be too much to cover with a single amp which has some desirable aspect, beyond gain, only available at a fixed intensity.
What do you mean by "at a fixed intensity"? I will certainly agree that no one amp is perfect at everything, but clearly some amps replicate soundingstaging better than others.
Both he and I use the same criteria: comparing the recorded result to what you hear at the recording itself. While I don't have nearly his depth of experience in that regard, I have participated in recordings by the ASO on Telarc.
I don't get out to live shows as much these days unfortunately. I usually enjoy shows outside the most. I don't know if it's because of sound quality alone but it's a big part. The acoustically treated music rooms I've sat in for shows, ie the opera house in my home town for example, work but I enjoy being outside more whenever it is warm enough for it.Thanks for your perspective.
Curious as you seem to have played with the acoustics enough to have gotten a feel for how the physics work...do you feel that dimensionality aspect you are seeking is an acoustic one or something that's happening in the electronics?
"fixed intensity" I was just referring to my assumption that you don't have quality or quantity knobs to dial in this magic to taste, whatever the magic happens to be. dimensionality = the magic I guess in this case if I've not misunderstood, but what exactly does it mean in engineering terms?
Edits: 11/05/15 11/05/15
do you feel that dimensionality aspect you are seeking is an acoustic one or something that's happening in the electronics?
Both. I'm convinced the room plays an important part in the ability to convey depth. I've been successful using a range of both absorptive and diffusive treatments since the 80s.
Similarly, the recording and the gear itself also play an important part with conveying depth and proper soundstaging. It was Harry Pearson's mentoring (and hearing his incredible systems over a wide span of time) that helped me realize what could be achieved. The walls always disappeared with great recordings at Sea Cliff.
...but what exactly does it mean in engineering terms?
Since there are no metrics available to measure such, all we can do is speculate. I think it has to do with preserving the signal's integrity in the time domain with the complex patterns we know as music. And eliminating psychoacoustically damaging high order distortion components. Researchers like Dan Cheever have discussed this.
It was Harry Pearson's mentoring - EStat
I searched and Searched and searched, couldn't find a thing designed by the guy, no amp, speaker , TT, cables, nothing !!! Must have missed what you two mentored types actually brought to the table, has to be something, unless i missed the directive of your mentoring ..
Regards
I'll let Harry's legacy of deeply influencing the high end audio industry speak for itself.
As for me, I've never had any interest to work in the audio field. I'd rather not have my enjoyment spoiled by having to work at it. I've had the opportunity to review, but politely turned it down. Pretty much for the same reason I never wanted to be a gynecologist. :)
Do you ever plan to start another company like Probe Audio?
Nope , left the audio field 20 yrs or so ago after 15yrs , never looked back , designed all i wanted to , worked with many really great people, had fun , seen the mountain top...
The end ..:)
Edits: 11/06/15
It's not a case of measurements not telling, In JA case he is not able to perform all the necessary measurements and deeper, not able to publish or cast negative opinion, as he should, especially after testing that whimpy 8 ohm only speaker Halcro he tested.Of course , we can beat Halcro to death ( and you do) since they are no longer a player..
There are obvious Boundaries and responsibilities, mag types have to respect, Politco as they may..
Edits: 11/05/15
You're like a puppy responding my responses to other folks. :)
Says the guy with a Horn loaded Piano ...
.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
Great audio specs on paper look impressive but will leach your emotions of all humanity and then you die. ;-)
nt
try it! you know you want to!
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