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In Reply to: RE: I believe it is true for you, but clearly not for everyone else...nt posted by kuribo on November 04, 2015 at 06:28:57
You are kinder than I. I spit up coffee reading his comments. He must have a very special SET. All those I have heard were sorely lacking as full range amps.
Follow Ups:
I have heard some very good sounding SETs but they were very expensive and also very speaker dependent. When you understand the intrinsic pros and cons of each type of device I think it simplifies the whole issue of tube vs S.S. Dont think for one second that very high quality tube devices are made by companies like Cary, Rogue or AR to name but a few. Some of the things that the SET guy brings to light are very important and lacking in many other tube amps.
I grew up with low powered tube amps and single driver speakers. They are just reinventing the wheel, but a better wheel. You will get a lot more compatibility with today's pentode style tube amps. Less distortion, broader frequency response, greater headroom.
But less realistic sound...at least compared to a good SET.
Yes, it is just my opinion. But in most cases your options are more limited with a low watt amplifier. Things like variances in impedance, room size, dynamics of the music, listening level, etc. must be addressed. Max's amp sounds like a monster and is probably a exception.
Ever read the article by Peter Van Willensward in STereophile? He showed that with real music SET amps can generate several times their RMS power.
Variances in impedance are largely irrelevant to sound quality unless it is a very low impedance and there is insufficient current delivery. Most speakers have inherent variance in FR that is far larger than what is caused by even a relatively low damping factor.
Listening level is only relevant if you want to listen very loud or have the absolute climax of a few large orchestral works not to compress. Most people listen at levels that are easily covered by SETs and speakers above 90db sensitivity.
Dynamics, transistions from soft to loud and vice versa, are more about topology and power supply than watts. I have heard some very powerful amps sound dynamically "constipated" because of their design. You got hte feeling that they just couldn't get out of first gear, so to speak.
Max's monster might be the end all of amps...or not...until one hears it one cannot say for sure. It sure stands a good chance though of sounding awesome.
All you need do it hook up a scope and check demands on the power supply and gain stage. I think you would be surprised at the micro demands that are soft clipping your amp at realistic listening levels. Your advantage is the clipping is more sonically pleasing than a SS amp. In the end, if you are happy that is all that matters.
Define realistic volumes? I have 98db/watt speakers so, no I don't think even relatively large crescendos are clipping my amps. What you are suggesting is exactly what Peter Van Wilenswaard did and he found SETs will put out more than 3x their rated output with real music peaks. You can read the articles in Stereophile, although i think they were published elsewhere first.
I did a search and only came up with this article. Is it the one you are referencing?
nope
http://www.stereophile.com/features/357/
Thanks. I got some time to read it as well as the follow up and letters. I don't know the guy. I think he thought he was showing the difference. We agree about softer clipping or more harmonically pleasing clipping due to being second order. I think that is one of the things Bob Carver did when he was trying to make his SS amp sound like tubes? Pass has used it with some of his amps as well. We agree that tube amps sound louder per watt.
Where I have problems is with the lack of testing on the three amps. The 25 watt ss amp might have been more like 16 as one reader pointed out. Who knows about the push pull and SE amps he used. He mentioned running the tube amps up around 2% distortion, but no info on tested power vs. distortion. He also used small window sound to measure the higher amp output. More of a burst than steady state. There are other points but why go on. Not a sound evaluation IMO.
He is one of the most highly regarded tube guys in Holland. Most guys really into hifi up there know him.
I think you are missing his point. You are trying to read things into his informal test that are not there. Tube watts don't sound any louder than SS watts but the amps under real world signals can deliver a much higher peak voltage than the SS amp he was testing. This is one possible explanation for why the seem louder because there is more dynamic headroom than even a much more powerful SS amp.
Dynamic headroom is not necessarily clipping. Amp clipping may or may not be audible depending on the SPL level at which it is occurring (your ears are less sensitive to clipping at higher volumes).
"He mentioned running the tube amps up around 2% distortion, but no info on tested power vs. distortion."
It wasn't a formal evaluation and besides it is pretty well known that the tube amps will measure with higher distortion so what's the point?
"More of a burst than steady state"
Again, that was kind of the point. Most music is more like this than steady state...unless you listen to test tones for pleasure. It wasn't to show that tube amps get magically higher RMS power.
We are wasting each other's time. I have owned a well respected SET amp (845). I have listened to others. I have not heard one that was what I call a full range amp. I have not heard one that fulfilled my audio needs. Same for single driver speakers. Good push pull tube amps have met my needs. That's it.
Both of my SETs deliver full power to 20hz or below...so I don't know what you mean by full-range but that is what I call full range. They roll off above 30Khz at the high end.
If you are happy with what you have nothing more needs to be said but IMO you are misrepresenting a whole class of amps because of some examples that you had that were not "full range". Your subjective comments I don't care so much about but your comment about the range covered by a good set is not based so much on fact.
Most of them don't produce enough power to generate the lower frequencies. It is simple physics. Most SETS are Model A cars compared to modern cars. Far too many limitations I refuse to live with. There are many SS and Tube amps that are equal or better with far more power without all the limitations.
"Most of them don't produce enough power to generate the lower frequencies. "
What a load of BS! The generation of low frequencies has nothing to do with the amps power output per se. If the output transformer is not good then the amp might not produce full power at low frequencies due to core saturation or how it is wound but this is not the same thing as you are saying.
"There are many SS and Tube amps that are equal or better with far more power without all the limitations."
I haven't heard a push pull tube or SS amp yet that can outperform a good SET...not one. They might have more power but that is all that they have that is more...certainly not sound quality.
Thanks for the good laugh on the transformer statement. I guess the power supply and power output don't mean much? The tranny needs to have the bandwidth but it also needs enough drive. The SET is a Model A. It needs the right conditions to work. I do get a kick out the all the effort to make them more powerful to actually widen it. I have seen some amazing tubes once relegated to commercial transmission being utilized.
You are right. I have not heard a world beater SET amp. I have also not seen a unicorn or little green man from another world. I remain convinced that the majority of highly rated speakers available today cannot be properly driven with the lower powered SET amps discussed here.
"I guess the power supply and power output don't mean much?"
How is this relevant to output transformers? Last time I checked the output transformer is not considered to be part of the power supply. FWIW, power supply matters a lot and power output not so much.
"The tranny needs to have the bandwidth but it also needs enough drive"
It is obvious about the bandwidth but what the hell do you mean by drive? Do you mean that it has to be big enough not to saturate? If that is what you mean then that is obvious too. If it is not what you meant then you better explain yourself.
"I remain convinced that the majority of highly rated speakers available today cannot be properly driven with the lower powered SET amps discussed here.
"
Again, irrelevant unless you are a crack-addicted speaker roller (there are plenty of gear junkies who might agree with you). There are plenty of highly rated speaekers that will work wonderfully and that is sufficient. I will give you a tip on one top conventional speaker that works wonders with a SET...the original Wilson X1 Grand SLAMM and the MK3 version...apparently the XLF too (given that they often show with LAMM SETS). I have firsthand experience with a lot speakers that are driven very well with SETs, including those that would not be obvious given their lowish sensitivity. Load seems to be more critical than sensitivity.
"How is this relevant to output transformers? Last time I checked the output transformer is not considered to be part of the power supply"LOL. Well without going into details, you don't have a amp without the three components. They also define the limitations.
"Again, irrelevant unless you are a crack-addicted speaker roller (there are plenty of gear junkies who might agree with you). There are plenty of highly rated speaekers that will work wonderfully and that is sufficient. I will give you a tip on one top conventional speaker that works wonders with a SET...the original Wilson X1 Grand SLAMM and the MK3 version...apparently the XLF too (given that they often show with LAMM SETS). I have firsthand experience with a lot speakers that are driven very well with SETs, including those that would not be obvious given their lowish sensitivity. Load seems to be more critical than sensitivity."
You miss the Model A reference. Why should I have the limitations when I can get a amp that will drive all speakers and sound just as good?
I have linked to the tests by stereophile of the Lamm SET. Notice the distortion graphs.
Edits: 11/12/15
"Well without going into details, you don't have a amp without the three components"
OTLs do just fine without the "third" component...go figure.
THere is nothing in the Lamms measurements to suggest anything other than an outstanding sounding amp, which has been nearly univerally acknowledged as such. Have you heard this amp?? I have and it is very good.
"OTLs do just fine without the "third" component...go figure"
OTL's? I thought this discussion was about SETS? Weak
"THere is nothing in the Lamms measurements to suggest anything other than an outstanding sounding amp, which has been nearly univerally acknowledged as such. Have you heard this amp?? I have and it is very good."
I would hope it sounds good. It better for $34,000. It measures like most SET amps where I have seen test data. Low power, higher distortion characteristics. Those qualities I find limiting. I might or might not have heard this amp? It would have been at a show where conditions are not usually optimal.
It actually measures much better than most SETs...but since you don't seem to get it...
" and sound just as good?"
Because this part is wrong.
" and sound just as good?"
Because this part is wrong.
I think it safe to say we don't agree on this point.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
Actuality it looks better than you would think, notice how the THD rises gradually with output , this is how distortion is presented to us in nature, its natural for us to hear as such, this kind of distortion curve will give an amplifier a natural sound within limits.
JA used to do ms power burst to measure an amplifiers ability to output dynamic power into varying loads, it would be nice to see one done on this SET.BTW and FYI, Steve over on Wallet Big Forum (WBF), uses one to power his Wilsons, no one hearing his setup has complained about lack of bass or dynamics..
Regards..
Go Rossi ......
Edits: 11/12/15
nt
try it! you know you want to!
looks reasonable at 2.83v , you see sumting .. ? I'm more concerned with the 10K SqW , maybe not something for ESL's :)
Go Rossi ......
Edits: 11/12/15
"shows that the THD doesn't change significantly with increasing frequency, though it does increase alarmingly as the load impedance halves."
Flat, load independent frequency response is important....
try it! you know you want to!
Because of output tap, just keep the output tap lower than lowest Zmin and you are good and since its at the very extremes, it may not be audible when listening, especially if you are using limited bandwidth speakers or those overstuffed pint sized subs going to 20 hz .You know, the ones walking across the room when reproducing a pipe organ..
:)
Go Rossi ......
Edits: 11/12/15
nt
try it! you know you want to!
BTW, all amps have increase distortion with lower Z loads, whats important is the balance and PSU size, even Bruno have to give into that one ...
:)
Go Rossi ......
nt
try it! you know you want to!
I guess he also doubts Max, never had any issues with mine with bass or anything bandwidth wise really, you have to pay attn to speaker impedance in the bass region for sure and i know many using them with no issues with bass, for sure they dont deliver Bass like a Krell , few does..There are bad SS designs and there are bad tooby designs, so experiences will vary of course, you have determined they are not for you, they are not for me anymore due to current speakers and room choice...
regards..
Go Rossi ......
Edits: 11/10/15 11/10/15
Of course load needs to be a consideration...although sensitivity not as much depending on the listening levels needed.
Personally, I wouldn't want Krell like bass unless I had a seriously underdamped speaker. With a properly damped speaker the Krells make a one-note(ish) kind of bass...more thud than texture.
I could actually simulate this when I had Infinity IRS Betas, which have variable Q in their bass controller. You could dial in super tight...way overdamped to very loose. One might argue that it was Krell bass on one side and a bad SET on the other. I found if I put a tube amp on the bass that either right at Q = 0.7 or slightly tighter was preferred but with a big SS amp I would want it closer to 0.9.
Never heard any Krell make a one note-ish bass, maybe the small ones , i never tried one of those.
Go Rossi ......
One would think The ability to reproduce peaks and recovery speed is mostly PSU design not just outputs, Morri , since no mention of PSU size when comparing amplfiers in the above link , while interesting , IMO makes it inconclusive ....
Go Rossi ......
Edits: 11/07/15
It has been demonstrated that negative feedback affects overload recovery quite a lot. Power supply is also very important though for sure.
Please dont bring up clipping enjoyment, Cab is very sensitive to it ... :)
"Max's monster might be the end all of amps...or not...until one hears it one cannot say for sure. It sure stands a good chance though of sounding awesome."
Are you also too far from NJ to check it out?
Nobody want to play with me, ma!!
Sorry, I am in Switzerland. However, if I come to the US for business then I will be NJ.
OK, Switzerland is a good excuse...:-)
Yeah, small rooms and naturally quite environments ( not even a toilet flush after 9pm) give the Swiss false pretence of SOTA sound .. :)
He does pedal a Lotus thou, so i will cut him some slack ..
We can flush until 10 ;-). No pretense, just SOTA sound, since I am not Swiss...just living here.
His amp is not low powered ....
Definitely not a typical set. Most I am familiar with are between 1 and 25 watts.
Cary's aren't cheap , neither is ARC , Rogue is not in the same league , Any plans to reconcile ..
Reconcile what?
I think that Rogue offers a much better value than ARC. But perhaps I should give another listen. I dont like push-pull designs typically.
I havent heard all of Cary's deigns but their treatment of the 300B is seriously lacking. When people talk negatively about the 300B tube it is because of manufacturers like Cary.
With the right speakers OTL is perhaps the best design IMO.
I am not impressed at all with what I hear from ARC amps. Rogue I don't have so much experience with and I owned a pair of Cary CAD-572SE, which weren't bad at all but definitely not the ultimate.
Most of these companies, despite their pedigree, cheap out a bit with the all too important output transformers. The OLD ARC tube amps had HUGE output transformers and weighed a ton. The newer ones have puny transformers. Rogues are also largely undersized. Cary too...
As a comparison, I have a JJ-322, which is a parallel 300B set. It weighs over 90lbs. (42Kg) and a big part of that weight is the quite large double C core output iron. They weight about 7 or 8 Kg each, which is a lot for a 300B transformer. Bass is weigthy but more importantly very nicely textured. Stringed bass instruments and lower registers on piano sound very realistic. A SETs bass capabilities and high frequencies really depend on the output iron...skimp there and get a mediocre amp.
I have tried serious OTL designs and while the intial transparency is breathtaking...ultimately the push/pull nature comes through and they don't sound as coherent.
The best sounding push/pull amp I have heard is a VAC 30/30 MKIII that I once owned...but ultimately I thought my SETs were better still.
So you have no Experience with the Cary 805B and ARC on a whole , yet you are willing to condemn them as the problem with toobs.. :)
OTL's is the way to go , but they have serious limitations, the speakers set the amplifiers, not the other way around, find the right SOTA speakers and chances are you will be well ahead in the game.
Ask Paul McGowan.. :)
Any other words you want to put into my mouth?
I have a great deal of experience with ARC both at shows and at 2 friends homes. Nothing special and certainly not even close to the best I heard using push pull. Overpriced for what you get IMO. Listen to the CAT amps sometime.
Do I have to hear every model in a product line before I can make a statement about a "house" sound? I have never heard a Cary product that I liked. I seriously doubt the 805A will be any different but I admit I havent heard this model. Slow and slovenly sounding compared with Tron or Border Patrol to give 2 examples. Feeding the power tubes properly in SET amps is critical.
I have owned over 6 S.S. amps in the last few years and at least 5 tubed (both ultra linear, P.P. and SET). I have had at least another 6 amps in my house for repair, inspection or audition. I have been listening seriously to 2 channel for over 28 years and attend just about every show. None of this makes my opinion any more significant, but dont believe that it is an opinion based on anything but experience.
OTLs are the best I have heard but I have never owned a speaker that worked properly with them and I refuse to use an auto-former.
For the record I dont think that ARC, Cary or Rogue products are the problem with tubes. I do feel that products from these manufacturers help reinforce the negative generalizations often associated with tube amplifiers.
Yes, the CAT JL-2 signature is pretty good as well (I didn't mention it in my post above); however, my friend who owned one also had a NAT SE2SE MK II that ultimately we found to sound superior to it on his big Apogees.
I'm not putting words , you stated you may need to listen to more ARC , implying what? you also stated you did not hear the 805B, yet you commented on them and if you have any experience as stated , you know you cant just hook an SET to any speaker.
As to ARC, I'm not a big fan myself, as VTL, toobs need to be matched to speakers more so than SS, so it takes time to fully say , No. The Cary 805B with the right speaker is no slouch.
I would only be interested in toobs again , if i get one of these ...
Just saying ...
If done right you can even power amp-eaters like the old Infinity speakers with an SET. These dip to 1.6 ohms impedance at one point in the FR! Here's mine in action for a local audio club get-together at my place:
Edits: 11/05/15 11/05/15
So get one... and then invite me over to hear your Vinage horns with toobies... :)
OTL's are about the best amps if used with the right speaker! Transparent, quick, breathtaking! (IMHO)
The offer is open. PM me if you want to hear an SET that can do full-range as well as anything out there, be it solid state, class D, whatever. No need for a sub at all, while retaining the SET magic.AND, I'm using them on speakers that are only 85 dB efficient (if that).
Any takers?
Edits: 11/04/15
Thanks for the invite, but I am on the opposite coast. Do you have any specs on your amp?
Too bad. I think you'd enjoy them.
What specs would you like? They weigh 180 lbs each, have a 2.3kV B+ on the 833C at 160mA, are pure Class A1 up to 40W then Class A2 after that up to 200W. Completely separate power supplies for input/driver stage and output stage, driver is the mu-follower-loaded 6E5P triode-wired tetrode directly DC coupled to the grid of the 833C (no coupling cap). Output transformers are -3db at 8Hz and 66kHz, double C core amorphous Metglas cores with teflon interwinding insulation and weigh 62lbs each (Monolith Magnetics).
Here's a peek underneath the chassis:
Absolutely badass!! Love it. Based on your description I would expect pretty awesome sound. 62 lb. output transformers!! Do you think this company can do something special for a pair of 6C33C monoblocks that I have? They are parallel SET. The current OPTs are good, definitely not budget, but I am sure they can be bettered.
You can always ask them. Drop Ward a line - he's a great guy and fellow DIY nut.
It sounds like a impressive amp. Do you have any RMS power and distortion graphs? I would be interested to see bandwidth and distortion for say 25 watts and 40 watts RMS.
I can tell you that at full 200W output the bandwidth is 32Hz to 60kHz. I never need close to that output, though. The bass shakes the walls when I play Yello.Haven't measured the distortion mainly because I don't feel like lugging them down to the shop, but I probably should one of these days. I've just been too happy the way they sound now to mess with them much. I do plan to do some mods like pulling the 10V, 10A filament supply outside the chassis at some point to drop the overall weight and noise floor a bit, but I've been extremely busy with work lately. Noise floor is still outstanding, though, at 300uV total with the inputs shorted.
Edits: 11/05/15 11/05/15
Also agree, SETs can sound wonderful thru the midrange but I've never heard one do bass with any authority.
Try a KR Audio Kronzilla SX or VA680 sometime or even the VA350i and you will hear a SET that can do real bass.
The Cary's 805B had Bass and drive, well only if the speakers being used had Bass and Drive, if not for a change of speakers they would still be in house....
Edits: 11/04/15
Slam and impact galore are a byproduct of 2.5kV power supplies, one per channel. 400J of energy storage per channel can really move a woofer!
I would be more inclined to think it has more to do with your beastly output transformers! My JJ-322 has big output iron for a 300B amp and it has control and slam in the bass that I had not heard from 300B before.
That being said I think the rest of your beastly power supply never let's that tube sag when the demand is on...
Here are the OPT cores before potting, with a metric ruler and an ECC83 for scale:
Now that is what I call a transformer!
BTW, like the Infinities...I used to own IRS Betas...
Max,
Nothing like big bwoy amps, Cab should experience them and get out of the clipping Channel.
A big boy with one output tube at least stands a good chance of sounding good...unlike the forrest of tube usually required...and of course the flawed concept of push/pull.
Yep , Max built himself a monster .....
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