|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
76.90.39.24
In Reply to: RE: You are merely justifying your preference with ... posted by Feanor on September 25, 2015 at 06:18:45
"a rubbish postulation"Do you even know who you are accusing of delivering rubbish?
You are free so say what even you want but you are showing your ignorance.
"...it is well agreed that orders higher than third are more audible and less musical."
Can you guess who said that?
Edit; It was Nelson Pass.
I found this quote from you "One thing discovered by Pythagoras 2500 years ago was that high-order harmonics sounded bad -- harsh, discordant. Nobody is really arguing with Morricab and his ilk that high-order sounds good , only that there is some level where it's inaudible. "
OK, at what point is 81st inaudible?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 09/25/15Follow Ups:
\Or maybe at what point is it produced at all?Nelson Pass himself seems to have suggested an answer of sorts. Consider this chart from his 'Audio Distortion and Feedback' treatise ...
This seems to imply that 81st order distortion won't happen at any conceivable level of feedback; apparently not at 40dB or .0001% distortion (which is as far as the graph goes).
Visually extrapolating, (red line added), Pass's chart it pretty much looks like all practical levels of high-order HD will emerge before 20dB of feedback -- higher than the 6th order illustrated to be sure, but at a steeply diminishing level.
Something that Pass didn't dwell on in his article is that fact that more feedback lowers ALL orders of distortion.
BTW, I own Pass Labs amp and like it a lot.
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich
Edits: 09/26/15 09/26/15 09/26/15
Don't you realize the reason that this chart stops with 6th order harmonics...it was too difficult before powerful computers to continue out the computation. You want to see examples of distortion going out at least to 20th order then all you have to do is look at stereophile measurements or soundstage measurements.
Here is an example...and it is a highly touted SS amp.
http://www.soundstage.com/measurements/dartzeel_nhb108_model_one/
I'm not sure that darTZeel is a typical SS amp. It's THD+N is actually rather high for a high-end amp at 0.2 % into 8 Ohms.
But yes, it's highly touted; are its proponents crazy?
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich
Just picked a more obvious one, there are many more that measure similarly. Nothing special in this day and age for the Soundstage measuring gear...Stereophile gets similar results with many amps.
Just wanted to illustrate to you that it most certainly doesn't stop with the 6th harmonic and that is just simple harmonics with a single frequency!! Once you add intermodulation effects it is as Nelson says, "The elephant on the dance floor".
What you see with the darTZeel is interesting because it further murks up the waters.
You called Manny ..?
Do you own FM Acoustics amps? When I was a reviewer I almost reviewed their products but got side tracked into a bunch of preamp reviews. I see nothing in their literature or design briefs to suggest a special magic there though. Probably very low measured distortion and a lot of negative feedback and of course push/pull and Class AB...basically nearly all that is conceptually wrong.
Only fooling around his Phono Stage Currently, preferring instead to get a used GT3 or a new Boat . :)I met Manny through other associates for years ,First in the 90's when he was the only one at CES at the time demoing with analog,(mid 90's) etc. His stuff was always highly regarding both for domestic usage and in studios around Europe, many toobites went over to SS because of Manny especially in ASIA.
we have different requirements IMO no tooby matches top notch SS for realism and drive, maybe on 100+ db hugemongous Horns, Alchemist do prefer them thou, for that magic. Anyway just to make sure I'm not mistaken after 40 years involvement, back and forth, I'm going to start fooling with them again, less see if my memory fails me.Condemnation without investigation is prejudicial ..... :)
Edits: 09/30/15 09/30/15
" IMO no tooby matches top notch SS for realism and drive"
Not sure what you mean by realism here because that is absolutely NOT what I hear...tone is all wrong, microdynamics wrong, 3d imaging wrong...just wrong. Drive? I guess if your speakers use bat poop for drivers (pretty close to 0db/watt sensitivity I would guess) and need 50 amps of current then ok but for dynamics a good tube amps SOUNDS much more open and free dynamically...on suitable speaker of course...;-).
SET, the alchemist choice ..... :)In case you missed the current trend , most Horn speakers are now being demoed with SS, including the mega buck Magico.
Edits: 09/30/15
Only here and there...tubes dominate horn demos...
Alon Wolf seems to be a tube denier so no surprise there. Most concluded that the room didn't sound so great (could have just been WAY too loud). For sure the speaker has serious potential...as it should for mega bucks.
As for Avantgarde, they like their own, homegrown SS but I have never heard them sound very good with their own amps. They sounded GREAT this year in Munich with a Lampizator DAC and AudioPAX monos. Really truly Great.
Tune Audio Anima used a Modwright SS amp (the rest behind was tube though) and it was significantly worse than the year before where it was all tubes.
The rest of the big horns at Munich used tubes.
The Line Magnetic WE replica horns sounded amazing with huge LM amps at a show in 2013 in Switzerland.
The REAL WE horns with Silbatone was utterly beguiling and literally brought tears to my wifes eyes when a Russian opera singer came on.
The big daddy Living Voice was its usual unbeatable self running a full Kondo rig this year.
Acapella always demos with Einstein in Europe
So, I am not sure beyond the one Magico and Avantgarde who is running SS regularly on horns. That said, I would think the First Watt SIT-1 would have serious potential on horns...as I said I am not opposed to transistors per se...just how they are typically used.
"The REAL WE horns with Silbatone was utterly beguiling and literally brought tears to my wifes eyes when a Russian opera singer came on."
-Morricab
Was this a mono or stereo demonstration ... ?
Not sure the Guy smelt a rat and wouldn't let Morricab near one ... :)
Mike Lavigne uses one and rates them highly, Mike is a serious player at the pointy end of hi-fi , so i would have to say there is something there, even thou it fails my technical punch card.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
Pass says, " Negative loop feedback creates higher order distortion harmonics, and there seems to be an implication that you might want to use lots of feedback if you plan on using any at all. Some designers look at it this way, others to use feedback sparingly, and some refuse to use it at all. "
He fits indo the "use feedback sparingly" school, in support of which he shows this graph based on his own experimentation ...
I don't see how this supports "sparingly" vs. not at all, but it is worth noting that he only tried 15dB of feedback, not 40dB.
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich
but indeed he never says he tried it...Putseys, on the other hand, does go there, and he, as well many others, seem quite pleased with the results.
All of this talk about the superiority of certain types of distortion over others, the superiority of certain distortion profiles over others, and then the claim that what is really "best" is no distortion (what a surprise!) all the while putting down an amp with inaudible IM distortion products and THD below the noise floor makes no logical sense. Since it is indeed all subjective, that is par for the course...
try it! you know you want to!
That is that the zero feedback crew LIKE 2nd order distortion; it is this that they like, not the lack of minute amounts of high-order.
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich
Again with this myth...Sigh...
nt
try it! you know you want to!
Post a Followup:
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: