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In Reply to: RE: When the goals are subjective, not everyone's "senses" will agree those goals have been met...nt posted by kuribo on September 19, 2015 at 16:50:21
Well once again, the goal of the hobby is expressed in it's name. Hi-Fi.
A high degree of truthfulness to the original.
I believe if we had a playback system (this would include the room and all aspects of the system) and a recording (both of which being deemed perfect in every way by the good Lord Himself) a lot of people wouldn't like it because that's not what their looking for.
I do not have a problem with that. People can listen to whatever they want to and enjoy whatever sound (no matter how far away from real it is) they want to....just don't call it Hi-Fi.
If it's Hi-Fi you're after then there are rules (as pointed out by morricab) prescribed by science and the study of psycho-acoustics that need to be followed.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Follow Ups:
How do you determine how close you are to that goal of high fidelity, whatever it may be?There is only one way to reach that goal?
If your audio experts can't agree, then clearly there is no unique solution.
try it! you know you want to!
Edits: 09/19/15
"What is your definition of high fidelity?"
I just gave you THE definition of Hi-Fi. It's not exclusively mine.
" "Original" what?"
Sound of the instrument. In a recording that would be the sound of the instrument at the mic position.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
A high degree of "truthfulness" to the original? That is subjective goal unless you have a metric to define "truthfulness". Not everyone will agree on what is most "truthful" to the original.
The "sound" of the instrument? Another subjective goal. Unless you were there at the mike feed, it's impossible to know with certainty what the sound was exactly, and even two people who were there may not necessarily agree because not everyone interprets sensory input identically. And that isn't even touching on the fact that not all instruments of the same kind even sound the same!
That's the problem with subjective goals. There is no objective way to prove when you have reached them, or no absolute reference to judge exactly how close you are. All you can do is give your opinion, and as we know, even seasoned experts with all the experience in the world may and do disagree. There is no closed solution.
try it! you know you want to!
"Unless you were there at the mike feed"
It's "mic position" and I was, many times.
With the likes of Dennis Green (RIP), Roger Kellaway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Kellaway and John Ondrasik (Five For Fighting) playing our 9' Baldwin concert grand piano.
Jim Capaldi's (RIP) drum set and congas.
Johm McEuen's (Nitty Gritty Dirt Band) banjo and acoustic guitar.
Kenny Loggins' voice.
Dave Mason's voice and acoustic guitar.
Chris Hillman's (The Birds, The Flying Burrito Brothers, Mcguinn Clark and Hillman, The Desert Rose Band) guitar and voice.
Jonathan McEuen's voice and martin D-28 acoustic guitar.
Phil Salazar's fiddle.
Ann Kerry Ford's (wife of Robben Ford and Broadway singer) voice.
I can do this all night but it won't convince you of anything so what's the point?
I can see that this is going no where.
Why don't you just bring your amp over and we'll give it a listen?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
what I doubt is that everyone would share your interpretation of that experience.
And no, I won't be swayed that your experience and opinion of those experiences is universal truth.
Ever see the film Rashomon?
Anyway, I have a feeling you are no where close or I would be happy to give you a listen. I suggest trying to find someone local with an ncore based amp and have at it....In the meantime, check out the specs. I think you will find them interesting.
try it! you know you want to!
"Isn't "high fidelity SET" an oxymoron?"-No, but High Fidelity Class D is.
"How do you determine how close you are to that goal of high fidelity, whatever it may be?"
-See post #1.
Can you tick any of those boxes?
My Garg0yle 2A3 DC's hit 6 out of 7 with a quick glance, 7 out of 7 with a verifying measurement.
( 7) Flat distortion profile vs. frequency (most amps rise in the highs or bass or both). )
△ᴉʇɐuᴉɯnllI oᴉpn∀△
Edits: 09/19/15
http://www.hypex.nl/docs/NC1200_datasheet.pdfAs for the "check list", can you point me to some documentation or research that proves those factors positively correlate universally with subjective preferences? Or even objective measurements? Of course I am referring to normal human preferences, not those with infinite hearing sensitivity....
try it! you know you want to!
Edits: 09/19/15
"As for the "check list", can you point me to some documentation or research that proves those factors positively correlate universally with subjective preferences? "
-I could, but obviously you wouldn't read it anyways, so what's the point.
I recommend you re-read what has been posted so far before you try anything more advanced.
You know, I don't consider myself a smart man, however I was chosen as a global community teachers assistant for the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's circuits and electronics course in 2013.
This was not based on my skill set per se, but on my ability to explain electronics in a different way so that people new to the field from across the world could understand.
That being said, I am qualified to say, that you are one of the most stubborn people in the world.
△ᴉʇɐuᴉɯnllI oᴉpn∀△
or leave me alone...
try it! you know you want to!
I understand, you probably feel silly now arguing with a guy that learned electronics from MIT.
Can't blame you there.
It is time that you start providing information that proves the superiority of your gear instead.
I don't have anything else to say on the matter at this point in time.
I really only stayed in this long to lend credence in regards to what Morricab was talking about.
Perhaps in the future there will be an interesting thread that explains as to why we as humans have evolved over thousands of years to find certain harmonics distressful.
I don't want to spoil it for you, but I'm sure some here can already guess which typologies sound distressful. ;)
For now, carry on as you were.
△ᴉʇɐuᴉɯnllI oᴉpn∀△
You're the one claiming the objective superiority of your SET and how it "checks all the boxes" and how class d is "low fi". I call your bluff and offer you the chance to make your case and you fold.
I'm guessing you had a look at the ncore specs and you are the one feeling a little silly now...
try it! you know you want to!
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