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In Reply to: RE: Second Class Audiophiles posted by Tre' on September 19, 2015 at 13:46:10
nt
try it! you know you want to!
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Well, on that count I disagree with Nelson.
For the casual listener it is just entertainment but for the serious audiophile it's a life long journey striving for unobtainable perfection.
I have to say there is a lot of entertainment along the way.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
"As I said at the beginning, this has been an interesting amplifier to develop,largely because it has contributed to my depth of knowledge as to what techniques make for a good sounding amplifier. Of course this is a subjective thing, and no amplifier is the best for all listeners and situations."
try it! you know you want to!
nt
try it! you know you want to!
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I believe in freedom of choice without insult and innuendo. My issue is with claims that a certain amp or amp topology is "best" or "better" than mine, or yours, for that matter. Personally, I couldn't care less what others like, but I don't appreciate the arrogance shown in dictating matters of taste. Putting down what others find excellent because it doesn't fit a model, a flawed study, or using measurements when it is convenient to an argument, but claiming they are irrelevant when not, etc., is propaganda, plain and simple.
How can there possibly be a "best" amp, i.e., one that does everything "best" in all systems, in all rooms, to all listener's complete satisfaction. Nothing is perfect. Each topology has it's strengths and weaknesses. We each consider those and based on our own preferences and ranking by importance of features, make a choice. The only person whose opinion matters is the one buying the equipment. It is ludicrous to be told that there is something inferior with your choice if you don't agree with some claimed "best".
Additionally, I know of no study of human preferences that has had unanimous results, that is, an audio study in which a group of people were asked for their subjective preference and had 100% agreement. You can't use a study based on subjective selection criteria to then infer something objective about those preferences. In other words, let's say someone did a study to see if there were certain types or patterns of distortion that were objectionable, or less offensive, or whatever. And 90 out of 100 people tested choose even ordered, descending harmonic distortion as agreeable, or least offensive, or whatever. That still leaves 10% with a different take. Are they "wrong"? You then take these results and say any amp that doesn't have this distortion pattern is fundamentally "flawed" or not as "good" as one that has the preferred pattern. Since no amp is perfect, it can't be anything but different! How can any value judgment be valid?
But you can argue objective performance. So when an amp is said to be "best", the only way that can be argued is through objective parameters, i.e., specs. Thus, I have asked for a spec comparison. We then usually get the "measurements don't tell the story". Well, no, they don't tell the subjective story, but again, that isn't open to debate. If a pet amp topology is "best", it should surely also measure well. But measurements are too simple to be accurate. Well, if an amp can't preform with simple signals, how are we to believe it does better with complex ones?
When an amp is putting out distortion at 5% and has harmonics at -40db, it isn't simply reproducing "live instruments" alone any more....it's an effects box. To each his own, I have no problem with that, again, that's subjective taste. But don't tell me an amp with clearly audible distortion is "best" or "better" in some objective way when there are those at 0.005% and -110dB down across all harmonics.
try it! you know you want to!
> But you can argue objective performance. So when an amp is said to be "best", the only way that can be argued is through objective parameters, i.e., specs. Thus, I have asked for a spec comparison. We then usually get the "measurements don't tell the story".>So which particular amp is the best in terms of measurements - if you can't tell us a specific one and show us why compared to the second best then your whole argument is just made up and in audio terms is totally meaningless.
If not the two best amps, then just the two best you know of for comparison - by two different manufacturers.
Edits: 09/19/15 09/19/15 09/20/15
subjectively or objectively. I have said that objectively, its specs are hard to beat and better in general than those who claim their tube amp is objectively superior.I have also said that the claims some have made about their tube amp being more accurate and better at recreating the sound of "live music" is false objectively because their tube amp is producing audible distortion. It is commonly said and many studies have shown that 1% THD is audible and that on average human hearing is capable of hearing to -80dB. Most tube amps will produce thd at or above 1% and many will have harmonics at greater than -80dB. Additionally, SN ratio, output impedance, and frequency response versus load are often poor or cause issues.
I have posted a link to the specs of my amp several times. I have put up. Perhaps you should too if you want to argue objectively. Have you figured out the difference yet between subjective and objective?
try it! you know you want to!
Edits: 09/20/15 09/20/15
The study of psycho-acoustics is not a beauty contest (an A/B listening test).
It's a scientific study into the ear brain mechanism not accomplished by taking a poll.
It is that and physics that lead us away from non-linear devices, push pull and feedback.
Anyway, it's been fun. :-)
I would listen to your amp in my system anytime you want to bring it over.
With my speakers I only use a fraction of a watt and many SS designs have their highest harmonic distortion % output at those low output levels.
I have no idea if that's true for your amplifiers.
Take care,
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Which class -A SS amp has a lot of distortion at 1 watt ....
No, I think it's Class B or Class A/B SS amps that have that problem but I don't think the problem extends all the way to 1 watt.
Is the N-Core amp Class A?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
no, class d....
try it! you know you want to!
So, if you know, is there the equivalent of crossover distortion in a Class D amplifier?
I just read the IR pdf about Class D amplifiers and there seems to be, having to do with switching and dead time.
The chart I'm looking at shows that the HD starts higher and doesn't drop to minimum until 10 watts output.
After reading that pdf it seems that Class D amplifiers are held together with a wing and a prayer.
I would really like to hear one of these things.
Like CD, once you understand how PCM works it's amazing that they sound as good as they do.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
"Note: THD+N includes noise.
Noise (mainly thermal noise from resistors) dominates below 10W. Since the noise level is constant and absolute its amplitude relative to the test signal level, expressed in percents, is higher for lower signal levels. This in no way implies that distortion performance has an optimum at 10W but that at lower powers it is completely unmeasurable amongst the (very low) noise. This is why distortion spectra are only shown for high power levels where any distortion of note exists. "First Watt" performance is, in fact, first rate. "
try it! you know you want to!
I was reading the International Rectifier pdf.
The above is from the N-Core pdf that you linked and no, I don't see the note.
I searched the pdf for "Note: THD+N includes noise" and came up blank.
The above is not THD+N to start with.
BTW not that it matters but it looks like this one bottoms out at 6 watts vs. the 10 watts from the IR pdf.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
http://www.hypex.nl/docs/NC400_datasheet.pdf
try it! you know you want to!
I was looking at the nc1200 datasheet that you linked in this post,
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/20/208394.html
The only thing that matters is how it sounds. Bring of over and we'll listen to it!
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
...is how it sounds.
Yep.
I guess you have now backed down from your objective claims.
try it! you know you want to!
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