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In Reply to: RE: I wonder why there are so many "conceptually wrong" amps? posted by Garg0yle on September 18, 2015 at 15:58:40
Personally I'm not using a class D amp but I have owned a couple; they were quite good.
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich
Follow Ups:
Ah but you did and now you have what? Pass, right? Guess the WOW factor wore off and the emperor had no clothes afterall.
The my Pass is a great amp though, I believe, it doesn't even meet all of your criteria of a correctly designed amp. I didn't abandon my class D because per se it was class D but because of the sound of the Pass.
If I had been just slightly more financially constrained, I could have lived reasonably content with my $700 Class D Audio. As it is, there is one respect where I prefer latter: the CDA takes 10-15 minutes to warm up vs. the Pass with take 40-60 minutes.
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich
Ah, so you would go back to that amp and give up your pass now...thought not...
You are right the Pass fails on a number of points...mostly because it is push/pull, Class AB and uses negative feedback. The distortion then will not fit an appropriate pattern for maximum invisibility to the listener.
You are not using a Class D amp. because obviously they are still not good enough. Shostakovich sounds best via a good Class AB amplifier , it does for me.
... If I ever have cause to replace my current amp. This amp is a Pass Labs X150.5 which is pretty remarkable and the best amp I've owned, however its new price is $5500 (last I checked). My Class D Audio SDS-258 which is about $700 is 85% of the Pass; it is the second best amp against previous amps of up to 3 grand.
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich
Have you even tried a SET before? They too have to be designed correctly (see my original post about output transformers).
... I'm not likely to.
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich
So many 'd' amps exist because they are EASY to build. I could become a manufacturer for probably 50k$ or less.
BUY modules and PS from Hypex, B&O, IR, or maybe a few others. Have cases fabricated and hire some reasonable people who can FOLLOW SPECIFICATIONS as to assembly and test.
Minimal Risk and good profit margin. What's not to like? At least from a business model point of view.
Their ARE original 'd' designs, like Spectron and a few others. But they are $$$. Maybe even made in relatively small numbers. Or by companies with poor LONG TERM prospects?
Too much is never enough
There is something called supply and demand at work...If people didn't want them, no one would be building them.
They are in demand because people like them...
try it! you know you want to!
For a second there, I thought you were talking about amplifiers.
:)
Certainly.
But, you'll end up with what's known as a 'ahake out' where the least profitable (NOTE: Not Smallest) manufacturers go out of business. Like a guy who has a real engaging and well thought out case design who thinks he can now be a player. Spends a bundle on inventory but is not necessarily a business guy. Good amp? For sure, just not making enough money and he doesnt' know how to fix it.
And since everyone is using modules from what is certainly a fairly small menu, the NEXT problem is one of 'unique selling position' or 'point'. You start talking about input circuits and modifications of factory modules. In the case of NON-Power Supply equipped modules, the design and construction of the PS becomes a possible selling point.
Companies like Spectron and whoever else makes a Proprietary 'd' amp have an advantage here. And since they ARE proprietary, have complete freedom of design and are not 'stuck' with potential compromises of being a module installer.
So sure, S+D is certainly at work. But so is the rest of econonics.
I'd say the good leverage may be what BelCanto appears to be doing. Working WITH Hypex for a dedicated design / mod schedule for Bel Canto ONLY. Now that's good marketing and I'm confident they'll preserve The rest of BelCanto's design and Sound goals. You also have to be able to BUY enough modules to make this work.
Too much is never enough
those that own the tech will be in the best position, followed by those who can differentiate their product.
But, as I said, the simple reason there are so many out there making class d amps, with more companies, both start ups and long established marque names entering the field, is because people want them...
try it! you know you want to!
And most class D amps. Merrill and Acoustic Imagery come to mind. This is true with ICE and other modules as well. W4S adds a buffer, but still uses the modules mostly intact. D-Sonics had W4S design buffers for them to put in front of their PASCAL and ABLITEC modules.
Bel Canto? Some minor tweaks.
People want them due to being "flavor of the month", and being overhyped.
There's nothing wrong with that, they are for the most part relatively cheap and decent sounding. That said, I'm not going to pay someone $10-$12K to put a module in a box.
Only a small number are doing any sort of rebuilding. Gilmore, Spectron and Auralic come to mind, redoing the power supply (read linear analog) and redesigning the digital output.
Jack
nt
try it! you know you want to!
With the possible exception of Bel Canto, none of those I mentioned are using OEM added circuits, they are using their own proprietary circuits. I don't see that trend. Most of the others rest are just sticking modules in a box.
Jack
adding their own circuitry rather than just popping a module in a box...
try it! you know you want to!
Theta is, for $14K. Merrill isn't really,just tweaks one can do at home. Bel Canto is putting a small circuit in front of the module. Big whoop. That's still mostly just putting a module in a box.
Jack
Are you familiar with the newer Merrill Taranis? Many of those using the newer nc500 are doing more than simple add on mods...
Bel Canto has their own input buffer and has worked with Hypex to make other customizations- I don't know many average consumers who could design and implement their own input buffer. NAD worked with Hypex to tailor and customize the module and power supply for NAD specifically. Levinson did considerably more as well...
try it! you know you want to!
Yes, I know of the Taranis. He's basically using the same PS that's used with the nc1200. His nc1200 amps are still basically just a module. Throw on a pc nd some footers.
Adding an input buffer before the module is still using the module, just like W4S does with the ICE modules, just like d-Sonics. They are still just basically modules. Put it in a box, and declare it "made in US".
Jack
nt
try it! you know you want to!
'Own' what tech? The patents / copyright of modules is owned by the manufactureres. You buy the right to use the modules and might even have other restrictions.
IMO, the BEST companies will be those with prorietary design and mostly In-House build. Those already IN the module install space should be in a good long-term position. Some, like NAD and ROTEL have a more diverse line.
And the reason so many newcomers? They sense Easy Money and High Profit margins with somebody else doing 85% of the heavy lifting.
If the history of HighEnd is anything to go by, MOST of these guys will be gone in a decade or less. And the gear? No matter how well reviewed, will be in the hands of 'fans' and used pieces will be sold back and forth between THEM.
Few manufacturers will reach the level of say, Threshold, or even the original Carver gear.
Kur, you are one of the Big Fans of 'd'. Why aren't YOU making and selling an amp? Tough coming up with a killer 'Unique Selling Position', isn't it? Not to mention startup cash in a very competitive business.
Too much is never enough
that is driving people to enter the market. If no one wanted them, no one would be making easy money wiring up the modules and dropping them in a case.
No doubt those with their own IP are in the driver's seat. The problem many are facing is that designing a first rate class d amp is no walk in the park. There are only a handful of people that have what it takes to do it. As a result, many traditional amp manufacturers lack the technical chops to create their own and thus have no choice but to buy someone else's.
Undoubtedly those that simply package up someone else's module won't be around for the long haul. We are already seeing the move among manufacturers to add their own circuitry to differentiate their product.
I have no desire to enter the class d amp manufacturing business. It's a hobby- if it becomes a job, I would have to find another hobby....
try it! you know you want to!
No BETTER way to ruin a hobby than to turn it into a business.
Too much is never enough
nt
try it! you know you want to!
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