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In Reply to: RE: Morri, Appreciate the effort, Dats some deep S*** , Conceptually WRONG ? posted by A.Wayne on September 18, 2015 at 05:14:32
I agree no one package fits all.
However speakers should be chosen by the limitations of high fidelity amplifier design.
Plenty of speakers will cause hearing damage with just a few watts.
Choosing power hungry speakers first is getting the cart before the horse, it's an uphill climb in which you will likely never reach the top.
P.S. Can you share any links of these unicorn SS amps you keep referring to? I would love to tell you what's wrong with them.
△ᴉʇɐuᴉɯnllI oᴉpn∀△
Follow Ups:
However speakers should be chosen by the limitations of high fidelity amplifier design.
To each his own, but in my experience, finding a pair of speakers I can live with long term is way harder than finding an amp I can live with. And limiting the search to high efficiency speakers adds another level of difficulty.
I have driven 84db/watt electrostats with 30 watt SETs no problem (do the math you will see it can still get quite loud) and ribbons too. A speaker with about 90db/watt and a benign load will sound better than you thought possible with a good SET.
I have heard what we thought were ho hum speakers turn magical with a top notch SET and I have heard great speakers sound like S#)t with a mediocre amp. Pick the speaker to match the amp and it is a more sure fired recipe for success. Unless your room is huge or you listening habits live rock concert, you don't need monster amps.
We recently did demos at friend who has Thiel CS3.7, which is sensitive at 91db but also has a tough load. Even still, my 35 watt PSE monos drove them better than the guys 120 watt Octave monos, which drove them better than his previous amps, the McIntosh MC501 monos. Truth was the needle was rarely climbing much above 5 watts when he had em and he listened pretty loud...
I admit I have not tried SETs on any of my favorite speakers. I have heard a few different KT88-based amps with my present and former speakers, with mixed results.
The closest I've come to finding semi-high efficiency speakers which not only sound good on a range of different music types but also would work well in my room is the Stenheim Alumine. I auditioned these with VAC amplification and it was superb, although I only listened for a handful of songs because it seemed out of my price range at the time. I regret not giving it a longer trial.
I've never heard Thiel with any tubes, but with mainstream SS they sound tippy. I imagine they would be pretty good with a 30W SET.
"mainstream SS they sound tippy"
No wonder they have extended treble that let's you know what is going wrong up there.
The Thiel speakers I've heard are not neutrally balanced. They suffer from a rising treble response on axis and a recessed midrange. Even if you set them up with no toe-in they are still brighter than what is subjectively, or even objectively neutral.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs36-loudspeaker-measurements-part-2#XpFgijkujbgGdUdV.97
THe CS3.6 (arguably the best Thiel speaker) doesn't have a rising treble (the spike is above 20Khz).
http://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs37-loudspeaker-measurements#MZWA5QC1pSJpIZVH.97
The CS3.7 rises about 2-3db on axis but the in-room response is smooth.
"The Thiels' spatially averaged response in his room (fig.8) gently rolls off above 7kHz, due to the increasing absorption of the furnishings in this region, but is superbly smooth and even between 200Hz and 7kHz"
http://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs5-loudspeaker-measurements-0#oLeZemolXw65LeVX.97
Pretty flat overall considering how many drivers and 1st order xovers.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs72-loudspeaker-measurements#062UrujpFzlapz0d.97
Bit of a saddle shape on this one will give a somewhat distant perspective due to a bit of a depression in the "presence" region. This one is perhaps close to what you describe
My friend's CS3.7s don't sound tipped up or recessed in the mids.
"Even if you set them up with no toe-in they are still brighter than what is subjectively, or even objectively neutral.
"
Again, which amps did you use? They exaccerbate issues with the HF distortion and noise because they are less rolled off than a lot of soft dome tweeter speakers. Nowhere for such an amp to hide like with a lot of speakers.
I haven't heard any of the other Thiel models, but these were among the brighter sounding speakers I've heard. I know the driver integration is sensitive to listening height though and I can't remember whether the setups were ideal in that respect.
Regarding the 3.7 measured in Wes Phillips' room, his later review of the Vivid G1 has an in-room measurement of the G1 compared to the CS 3.7. The response of the G1 shows what many listeners consider a "natural" balance, which falls with frequency about 10dB from 20-20k, roughly along a straight line on a log-log plot. The Thiel's in-room response was flat to 5 KHz, which should sound subjectively bright.
Subjectively bright on the wrong amplifier, as the G1 on the wrong amplfier will sound dull ..
Like I said, I imagine Thiels would do well with medium power SETs. Conversely, I think I would prefer the Vivid speakers with those Soulution amps.
"Like I said, I imagine Thiels would do well with medium power SETs. Conversely, I think I would prefer the Vivid speakers with those Soulution amps.
"
You can imagine whatever you want. ;)
But, as I've been saying over and over, "IT'S A SYSTEM".
:)
It doesn't matter if "this or that" speaker sounds like this-or-that, within the context of the thread topic.
Edits: 09/22/15
Built it .......
Some Class -D have extended treble, you might want to knock your tweeter down a notch when auditioning, They are also very sensitive to power cords and speaker wire (RLC), never encountered anything before this sensitive to such.
Edits: 09/21/15
I think you mean distorted and noisy treble. Both of my SETS have flat frequency response beyond 20Khz...which is definitely extended enough, as did my NAT and KR amps before. None of them required a tweeter "knockdown" although they all extended well beyond the limit of hearing for all humans.
Yeah , Noisy , does respond to wires and cable thou, what list of tooby amps ..?
John Marks pick is a good start .......
WHich is?? Is it posted somewhere or in Stereophile? I don't have a subscription...
The darTZeel??? Surely you are joking...
Stereophile: http://www.stereophile.com/content/dartzeel-nhb-108-model-one-power-amplifier-measurements#uBJ9SibqxZT4kuOl.97
Let's have a look at those measurements shall we?
It has the same distortion at low power as at high power...usually not a great sign
It does have flat distortion vs. frequency...a good sign
However, the distortion at 50 hz shows a picket fence of harmonics...not promising
Soundstage:
"http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/dartzeel_nhb108_model_one/"
Good THD vs. frequency and evenness of damping factor
But look at CHart 5 at the harmonic distortion at 10 watts at 1Khz...Yikes!!!
Definitely not monotonic and almost certainly audible..
What we don't get from either review though is the IMD harmonics but I think we can guess they are not so good.
Have you heard the Dartzeel's ? from the bench it has too small a PSU for me to give it the full NOD, but it is highly rated and accepted for it's sonics and exhibits good tendency' if used above 4 ohms. speaking of , I'm sure you did not miss the squarewave of the LAMM at 10K , plenty slewing, not as good as the dartzeel, will make bright speakers sound darling.
Yeah , not as straight forward as the charts would suggest..
Regards
Edits: 09/18/15
As stated above, I heard them in the designer's home system. I also saw them being assembled in their workshop and heard them and the big daddy one at a few shows besides.
I won't agree with JM on this or many of his picks for that matter (his recent endorsement of the Wilson Benesch speakers, for example).
Thank you I am checking it out now, it does look pretty nice.
One issue I see right away is that it is $18,000 which kinda raised my eyebrows.
Seems like an awful lot to spend just to almost sound like tubes?
△ᴉʇɐuᴉɯnllI oᴉpn∀△
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