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In Reply to: RE: some boring philosophy concerning audio posted by E-Stat on July 22, 2015 at 20:19:07
I can handle heat and humidity for only so long, then hide in the basement and read read read. Constant 90's is a bit of a trial without AC, I admit. I realize there are necessities. I resent excess.
Interesting we both had early exposure to Pass gear. I also had GAS junk and Luxman when it was good. I had a local shop that really knew their stuff, taught me a lot. Now a lost resource for newbies. Guess they rely on the net now.
For you new guys out there: there is a way to have a beautiful stereo that operates efficiently. But electrostatic speakers probably is not the way to do it! You'll need some big ass amps, and that means lots of juice.
These little chip amps (they're actually far more sophisticated with a nested LM318 besides the LM3886) can drive my buddy's Eggleston Andra's to realistic levels, but they're maxed out for sure. Very sweet, tube-like.
Peace,
Tom E
Follow Ups:
But electrostatic speakers probably is not the way to do it! You'll need some big ass amps, and that means lots of juice.
Juice in the sense of power supply stiffness and drive to handle the reactive loads as opposed to watts.
Even my preamp's power supply has more twice the energy as those chip amps.
Bragging about the size and stiffness of your power supply?
Who gives a shit?
So it goes ..........
Who gives a shit?
Such is important only to those with challenging speaker loads or those who wish the best sound quality.
Of course it's important, but how much is too much? With a tube preamp, though, I can understand a bigger supply would be critical. If power is used efficiently, perhaps not so critical.
I have a passive preamp, so no supply needed at all! System is very dynamic, and I've had quite a few different preamps, including tubed.
> Of course it's important, but how much is too much?
I've never encountered "too much". For comparison, the base Mauro design has two joules of energy storage (27,200 uF @ 12V) according to the schematic. My earlier comment was based on an implementation of that design I found that had 20 joules (60,000 uF @ 25V).
By comparison, the Stasis 3 has 105 joules and the pair of VTL amps, 500.
My experience is that high storage energy amplification provides better resolution and dynamic impact. Back in the 70s, I did some DIY work to an Audire power amp. Tripling the capacitance made a noticeable difference.
Everything is relative.
I wonder if that Stasis supply is the same as the 400A? Bigger? Nelson does like those big caps, and using, sometimes wasting, all that power.
It has been demonstrated that additional capacitance in the MyRef and other chip amps does not necessarily yield better sonics. That might be true for more than just this circuit, but in many other cases where commercial considerations led to undersized PS, more cap is indeed desirable. You're right: it's all relative. These things are not intended to break windows. But they do make really sweet sound, and plenty of it.
It has been demonstrated that additional capacitance in the MyRef and other chip amps does not necessarily yield better sonics.
Sorry to hear that.
"Very sweet, tube-like"
Doubtful at best.
and yes I have heard a number of chip amps. I have also owned a couple of Class D amps and heard more than a dozen others of all manufacture types. None have anything remotely like a "tube like" sound.
I wonder what poster Mel thinks of his thread.
It has turned into a debate between several members and has not addressed the posters problem in quite a while.
Maybe some phone numbers could be exchanged and these pointless conversations can be done on someone elses' time.
You voice your opinion and let it stand,if it truly can stand on its' own two feet.
Taking people on your own personal joy-ride doesn't help anyone-maybe the poster,but there are other places to post at least half this nonsense.And being notified that somebody has posted something new to the topic,only to find this clever bickering.
Oh what the H--L,none of us has anything important to say anyway..Go at it.
Tom:cat
Mel has already answered, plus he's double stacked up on the popcorn by now ...
Not my usual policy, but I can't resist any longer. You insult me, call me a liar, have heard my system without me knowing you were in my house, know everything about audio. You seem to be a real snob and a class A jerk.
My amps are not anything like Class D, which left me unsatisfied, and they are not a simple chip amp. I have owned and heard many types of tube amps, and these project the same natural tonality, inner detail, and spatiality without any of the heat, distortion, or noise. They were designed by a knowledgeable man who had zero commercial interest and cared only about the sound they produced. You recently bemoaned the dearth of innovation in SS circuitry. Here is an innovation of which you know absolutely nothing and you have never heard. Enjoy your ignorance.
1. Print out this post of yours;
2. Frame it, and hang on the wall, right before your eyes, so you can always see it, when you type something on the keyboard;
3. Have a good look at it EVERY time, when you have an itch to advise someone else how to behave on a web forum, and whether to call someone a "moron".
How's that? Seems fair to me.
I don't begin every post wherein I disagree with someone by calling them a moron or some other derogatory name. This guy's behavior toward me was getting provocatively arrogant, and I don't like being looked down on. To me, that qualifies as snobbish and jerky behavior. I did not call him a moron.You're still the leader among name-callers, so put one of your juvenile posts on your wall. Better yet, print out my posts, put them on your wall, and throw darts at them or set fire to them. Find some other way to channel all that anger.
You know, I did say some positive things about you, but I guess you want to ignore that.
Do not stalk me or you will be reported to the mods.
Edits: 07/24/15
"Not my usual policy, but I can't resist any longer. You insult me, call me a liar, have heard my system without me knowing you were in my house, know everything about audio. You seem to be a real snob and a class A jerk.
"
Says the man calling me a snob and jerk for no apparent reason. Where did I insult you? Where did I call you a liar? When did I claim to hear your system or even make a direct comment about it other than to be doubtful your chip amp sounds sweet like a tube amp?? You are the jerk with your pseudo environmentalist BS about power consumption and consumerism...a man with not one, not two but THREE systems!! Do you leave them on all the time?? Bet you do because you think they consume so little, right? I turn mine on 30 minutes before I listen and off immediately after but I am a power hog while you are Mr. Saint Three Systems!
"My amps are not anything like Class D"
I know that is why I also mentioned chip amps...get it? I heard one of the first chip amps ever (47 labs) when the German importer first started to carry it. Is it using the same National Semiconductor chip as yours?? Probably similar. I heard it with the maxed out power supply tubes...not bad at all...didn't sound even remotely like a good tube amp though.
"these project the same natural tonality, inner detail, and spatiality "
I am sure you think they do...
"You recently bemoaned the dearth of innovation in SS circuitry. Here is an innovation of which you know absolutely nothing and you have never heard"
A) A chip amp is not novel anymore...try 15 years ago...
B) As stated above I heard the one that kicked off the whole gain clone trend. Heard a few of the later ones as well. Better sounding than Class D for sure but not a good tube amp, not buying it.
You dismiss my perception: can't possibly be that way. That's calling me a liar, and makes it seem as though you have heard my amp. How else could you make such judgments?
Oh yeah, you heard a simple chip amp years ago. 47 Labs was a rip off. They charged like $1500 or something for less than a couple hundred bucks of parts, including enclosures. Thus was born the gainclone movement, but there has been some improvement and innovation.
This amp uses the same Nat Semi LM3886, but goes quite a bit beyond that with another opamp nested in the feedback loop forming a current pump. Carefully selected, super-premium passive parts are used throughout. You've never heard it, and it sounds nothing like a simple chip amp. It sounds better than most SS amps and some of the tube amps I have heard. Who is in a better position to make a comparison? Do you understand why I'm insulted by your dismissal? This amp is not the ultimate, and it's not overwhelmingly powerful, but it might be an alternative to modest but power-hogging Class A and tubes. I would like people to at least open their minds to the fact that there might be something better. So far, the posters here cannot accept the possibility, and that's a shame. Without any experience, you already know it can't happen. It's just not heavy or hot enough to be a REAL amplifier.
I don't leave any system on except the main one. The main system consumes a few watts if not playing anything, and, even when it does, it's very efficient. You could hold the heatsinks in the palm of your hand, and they barely get warm. At idle, it probably consumes about as much power as an alarm clock.
The other two systems are very modest, all driven by the main system sources. Workshop system consists of a salvaged Nakamichi receiver that had a busted preamp PCB. It has been gutted except for the PS/power amp stage (discrete components, gets a bit warm at idle), now hooked up to a passive volume control, driving unique 2-way speakers I built myself using Peerless drivers. In the kitchen I have a tiny class T amp with SEAS coaxial speakers in homemade enclosures. I probably spent less money (but far more time and effort) on all three systems combined than some have spent on a single fancy tube amp, and altogether they probably consume much less power. Your insults are misdirected.
Tom E
"You dismiss my perception: can't possibly be that way. That's calling me a liar,"
No, that is implying you are deaf...not a liar. Big difference.
With the rather large external power supplies the 47 labs was a not so simple chip amp. It sounded fine for a basic sound.
"Do you understand why I'm insulted by your dismissal? This amp is not the ultimate, and it's not overwhelmingly powerful, but it might be an alternative to modest but power-hogging Class A and tubes"
Umm, you have a skin the thickness of rice paper maybe? We are talking about amps, man...I didn't call you or your family a name or something. I know it's not the ultimate, or powerful. I take exception with your contention that it is a viable alternative to serious "power hogging" designs.
I know more than a few tooby guys using chip amps now on their Horns , tri-amping them and not missing toobs, I know , deaf huh ... :)
Edits: 07/26/15
I know , deaf huh ... :)
You said it...
Triamping with tubes can get too hot for even a tube guy. I had a friend triamping his Apogee Grands (only used the built-in Krells for the subs) with 3 x NAT monoblocks per channel. The heat in his room was staggering...but damn did it sound good.
That's because they're unbiased...
Sorry, couldn't resist.
R.
They were designed by a knowledgeable man who had zero commercial interest99% of the active circuitry of the amp was designed by Texas Instruments and found in two ICs. Adding a power supply, a handful of support resistors, caps, connectors and cabinet doesn't constitute very much.
I can assure you that TI most definitely has *commercial interest*. :)
Edits: 07/23/15
Reductio ad absurdum, in fact. I'm well aware he didn't design the chips. Actually, the chips were designed by National Semiconductor, not TI, and they're superb. Nothing wrong with chips, unless you're stuck in the past. It's all about implementation, layout, and passive component values and quality. You can't shake a box full of IC's and get a decent amp, much less a superlative one. I spent a couple years experimenting with that handful of caps and resistors to get the best combination: copper foil/PP film caps, naked Vishay's, no magnetic parts, etc.
I have to concur that i have heard good implementation of chip amps , well better than most would think , best with speakers of hi sensitivity and efficiency , the sound belies their low cost and size.
Regards
Your use of the word "designer" stretches reality.
He implemented the amplifier. :)
Did your amp's designer design the tubes? I specifically used the word implementation.
That's all you took away from that last post? I'm done.
Sorry, I was responding to this comment: They were designed by a knowledgeable man who had zero commercial interest
Did your amp's designer design the tubes?
There is a vast difference between someone who designs an amp using their choice of active devices, passive support circuitry AND topology via either individual semiconductors and/or tubes vs. one who has ZERO control over a canned highly complicated integrated circuit.
I'm not so sure the chip is in the amp ....... :)
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