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In Reply to: RE: 6C33C-based amps sure do - the BAT in question, and also my Audio Mirror monos. posted by carcass93 on July 20, 2015 at 12:22:16
Speaking of 6C33C, I just got a pair of 6C33C based monos from a German company called Wall Audio. 2 per channel and about 35 watts or so of power. Kick the butt of my Odeons so far (only had them 2 days so far).
Follow Ups:
45 Wpc, parallel SET, 2 6C33C per channel, 1 x 6SL7 as input, 1 x 6SN7 as driver.
It's anything but "mushy, flabby bass", "blurred and slow drum set", "rolled-off highs", or any other nonsense, which is generously sprinkled around here by those devoid of experience.
Yeah these new ones are 35 watt Parallel SET with shunt regulated input and driver (ECC82s both tubes). Output transformer uses Ni and Co alloy. Bass is very powerful...much more so than my JJ 322 but the texture of the JJ is just superb...not clear if this new one is up to that standard or not yet. Mids are big and palpable but still open. Highs are not as delicate as the 300B amp but that is not a huge surprise I think.
.... "sweet and delicate", and more about "big, bold and powerful".
Suits the music I listen to perfectly, but I can see why someone else would prefer other designs, supplying more of the traditional "tube magic" sound.
As far as heat - 4 of those heat monsters is as many as I would tolerate in my smallish 16' x 11' listening room, with low ceiling too (basement). Looks like yours are run more conservatively, being rated at 35 Wpc.
Well, I took some time to listen to one of my better recorded Jazz records (Korean singer, album called Lento on ACT label) and the transparency through the upper mids of the new amps is stunning. Very pure sounding with just a light dusting of sweetness. Not quite a projected as the JJ 322 but still very palpable and alive there. The upper highs are slightly subdued but interestingly it is not a dark sound like one would usually get with dynamically constricted highs. This suggests that there is not the constriction just a generally lower level of output. So far I am liking quite a bit what I hear and it is clearly perfect for long listening sessions...it makes you want to dig out more music rather than turn them off. The JJ is more "lit up" but I think that is what really well designed 300B amps do best. Bass texture is perhaps still slightly better with the JJ but the power in the bass is clearly in the court of the new amp (it is a german brand Wall Audio and the model is the Opus M50). Not that the JJ felt lightweight but it doesn't have the Gravitas. It could be also due to transformer types. The JJ is using very thin laminate double "C" cores with grain oriented steel, which the M50s use EI types with very thin laminates of Ni and Co alloy. Some of the fullness from the new amps could be some onset of core saturation giving a bit of harmonic "fullness". The JJs OPTs are so oversized and of the core type that saturation is unlikely and you really hear nice bass texture.
I think despite the projection of the 300B the tonal color of the Opus M50 is more right through the mids and it is utterly grainless for both amps. Short of spending Kondo money I don't think I can do a whole lot better (preamp evalautions are still ongoing).
Morri,
there is not much on the internet about the Opus M50 , are they selling direct ..? Lots of dollars for so few watts .. 12K a pr ..
Well, you and I both know that its the quality of the watts that counts. If I wanted just lots of watts I would just get a big cheap profi amp and be done with it.
Not direct, there are a few dealers, almost all in Germany. It is a small German company even though it has been in business for a long time it stayed small. Nice products though...
This guy who did the report, Kim Key, picked it as a most wanted item for their site for 2014 even before he has finished the proper review. This is a guy who has heard the best of tubes (Kondo, Thrax etc. etc.). They are priced a bit more sensibly in Germany and I got mine as show demo models.
12K a Pr ...
Edits: 07/22/15
Joule Electra Right of Passage amps driving Magnepan 20.1s at Sea Cliff. I met Jud Barber in Atlanta years ago and found him to be a fascinating guy.
You could supply a few MiG Foxbats with that many 6C33s. :)
I can't even imagine how hot those things must get. I had a pair of Silvaweld OTL reference monos that hand only 4 of those things per channel and it cooked my room to the point where I said "enough!" and I sold them off. Made my room swelter.
Now the new ones are only 4 tubes total and they are getting quite warm, especially compared to my Pset 300B amp, but still under control compared to the NAT I just got rid of. Only the Silvaweld OTLs got hotter than the (hybrid with transistor output but man the heat!) NAT.
KSA 200 was the biggest space heater I ever had, pulled 12 amps idling, That NAT must have been perfect during the winter months Morri and you still get to play with the toobs.Anyway,
Agree or disagree subjectively about Audio systems is one thing, peddling toobs as being as or more reliable than SS gear will require some of your special Bong juice for acceptance Morri.
Regards.
Edits: 07/21/15
Think about this logically for a moment. What is the main thing that fails with a tube amp?? The tubes, right? The rest of the amp is usually very simple in comparison to a SS amp. When tubes fail they are simple to replace, no? Even if you have to bias them (many amps you don't need to do this) it is still a 10 minute job. The circuit is usually simple enough that if more serious problems arise a skilled technician can reverse engineer the schematic.
Now, when a transistor amp fails...well it is usually pretty terminal and requires a very experienced person...and a good schematic in order to repair it. It will not be possible to reverse engineer the schematic in most cases.
Now, while I will agree with you that an SS amp will fail less often in general (there have been notable exceptions to this...you just have forgotten your history), when they fail it is often catastrophic. A tube amp might fail more often but 80% of the time it is a simple tube swap and then off and running again for another 5-10 years.
You and some others seem to be making a big noise about tube amp problems but they are relatively unproblematic in general and easier to fix when things go wrong.
Morri, Really..!
You can have your subjective Sound with Tubes, But there is no way you are going to convince anyone tubes are more reliable than SS, funny stuff thou...
Regards...
Edits: 07/27/15
... and at 86 I'm sure interested in reliability. The last two failures I had -- earlier this year -- were of solid state gear. That's been the pattern throughout my history with this hobby.
Yeah, I'm sure there are badly made SS gear , a rarity thou with SS , failures that is ..
Regards
Edits: 08/01/15
Rare, you say? My tubed audio system (it's in Inmate Systems) is reliable, extremely musical and involving, and a joy in general. My solid state HT setup (Sharp Aquos TV, Marantz receiver, Oppo Blu-ray/DVD player, Comcast cable box, Apple TV, multiple HDMI cables) has been nothing but trouble. I'm on my 3rd cable box, 2nd receiver (and the second one is just as unwillng to work with the TV as the first one was), I'm currently reduced to going straight from the cable box to the TV, thus eliminating the benefits of external speakers and the option of headphone listening. A tech shop recommended by Sharp has tried hard to solve this problem and ultimately given up.
Oh, and the furnace room is a museum of non-working stuff, all SS, that I think MUST be fixable because SS is so damn reliable, don'tcha know.
Sorry to hear this Dave , now a show of hands , anyone with a collection of bad SS amps, err, excluding cable boxes of course .. :)
Sorry Dave tooob's can't win the objective reliabilty test , not possible , why AR alone keeps fedex humming :)
"collection of bad SS amps"
No, because they get chucked out like yesterday's newspaper as they are either unrepairable or not worth repairing in the first place...
What about bad Feedback SS , euphonics with reliability ...:)
Looks like something was not adjusted properly in that amp or there are design flaws. It is using optical biasing of the output transistors and who knows what kind of non-linear can go wrong there?
Certainly won't sound like a good tube amp...particularly a SET.
Morri,Do you level match when comparing side by side or are your comparisons memory based. Some years ago , I did anger a bunch of my ESL biased friends , after they requested to turn off the "slow" subwoofers , of course i only pretended to power them down and the night went on without a nary or a hitch ..... :)
complaint free Audio And so it goes .....
Regards
Edits: 08/01/15
I level match using a Behringer DEQ 2496 digital equalizeer and pink noise generator to set usually within 1 db. Works quite well acutally.
I have found that a good servo sub can keep up with planars and/or horns without an issue. If you have some phase control then you don't have to get all crazy about placement, however, I have found that for time coherent speakers it is really critical to place the sub in as close to a time-aligned placement as possible or it will sound slow.
My Mirage BPS210 works well when placed correctly. The only drawback it that it will not play super loud. It is very "fast" though and has a lot of controls for blending with the speakers. I get a great blend with either my Ref 3as or my Odeons.
JA goes on: "Below that point, the Edge does offer excellent measured performance; above it, the extra distortion on musical peaks will only last for the duration of the transient, which will work against audibility. Only on sustained high-level music will the Edge's sound become harsh"
In other words, a POS.
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich
No , a Euphonic power instrument and with the right matched setup will produce toob like euphonics of added ambiance and reality ..
So it goes ....
@Mel, take a look at the ATI amplifiers , very robustly built , not sure of the sonics , trying to ascertaining that myself ...
Regards
Edits: 08/01/15
I didn't notice. As for space heaters, the gentle giant VTL Wotans take the cake with twenty-four 6550Cs per amp. :)
I have found the 6C33C to run WAY hotter than a 6550, they are insane really. They run hotter than a 845 or 211 as well. THe Joule has what, 12 or more per monoblock? THat is 800 watts per mono (not running full Class A I guess)! My new monos with only 2 of them per channel runs 250 watts per mono, Compare that with a 300B that runs in Class A only 290 watts for a parallel stereo SET. So the equivalent number of output and input tubes (2 per channel) yields nearly double the power consumption to a 300B. Last time I checked the 300B has about the same power consumption as the 6550 in Class A. So, I would guess then that the Rite of Passage monos consume about as much power as the big VTLs despite having half the tubes.
THat is 800 watts per mono (not running full Class A I guess)!
Consumption from wall, yes. They run class A producing 200 watts into 8 ohms and 150 into 4.
Joule Electra specs
So, I would guess then that the Rite of Passage monos consume about as much power as the big VTLs despite having half the tubes.
As it turns out, they consume slightly less than my MB-450s which max out at 1 kW using eight 6550s per amp. I couldn't find consumption figures for the Wotan, but the smaller MB750 with half as many tubes draw 1.3 kW each. The 1.2 kW output Wotan is likely closer to drawing 2 kW.
Ok, 800 watts per mono (I was thinking for the pair somehow) would get to Class A 200 watts I guess (about 25% efficiency). Consumption from the wall is what matters with regard to heating a room. If only 25% is being transformed to music signal at MAXIMUM then with normal listening nearly all is waste heat. Let's say 5 watts on average then 5/800 = 0.6% music and 99.4% heat or 795 x 2 = 1590 watts of heat. At full power it would be 1600-400 = 1200 watts of heat.
Most of the time your MB450s are MUCH lower consumption because they are largely Class B. What is the idle consumption? Probably a 100 watts or maybe 200 watts at idle. Also at Max power the amp is what? around 450watts in tetrode? 425/1000 = 43% music power and 570 watts of heat = 1140 watts max. At idle they are 300 watts. Let's say then that 5 watts is still more or less Class A operation (I will assume that the consumption doesn't go higher for a 5 watt output) then 5/300 = 1.7% signal and 98.3% heat or 295 watts x2 = 590 watts as compared to 1590 watts...big difference. My new Wall Audio monos consume about the same at idle (500 watts) as your big monos (600 watts) for 1/10th the max output power (35 watts vs. 425 watts).
The mighty Siegfried is closer at 600watts idle per mono. Since most listening is done closer to idle than full power then we have to say that the Rite of Passage will generate more heat than even the Siegfried. The Siegfried seems to be biased deeper in Class A than the MB450 though (300 watts idle for 8 output tubes vs. 600 watts idle for 12 output tubes). With the same bias the Siegfried should have a 450 watt idle. Interesting.
According to Stereophile the mighty Wotan was 650W at idle, so far less Class A bias than either of the two amps above and still less heat output most of the time than the Rite of Passage monos.
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