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In Reply to: RE: I'm not at all sorry posted by madisonears on July 19, 2015 at 22:09:44
"Oh, I've heard how good tubes can sound, and my VK-60's made some pretty sweet music"
Ah, so they didn't suck!! Just sucked a lot of power...like I said, I can believe that. But if you go with Class A SS amps they are also amps that "sucks".
"with less distortion, and it will always sound exactly the same and not fail for probably 20 years"
What does that mean "with less distortion"?? Did you find the BATs to sound distorted?? You just said above that they made some pretty sweet music. If you mean on an oscilloscope I would ask you how is that relevant to your listening experience?? Does it give you a security blanket to know that you have only .001% THD even if it doesn't sound as good (despite what you tell yourself?) Parts age in SS amps to and they for sure change sound over time...as to failure...I have seen just as many dead SS amps as tube amps and the SS amps are harder to repair.
Your post is a model of self-contradiction and self-deception.
Follow Ups:
I agree that tubes sound very nice when they are operating perfectly, which is rare. Of course a SS amp can fail, but usually they don't just sputter and flame and pop and hiss and smoke all on their own. Most SS failures are induced by careless owners or simple age (typically, PS) after many years of reliable service. Just from my own experience and reading numerous posts here, I know there are likely to be many more failed tube amps.
I would never consider Class A amps because of all the power they waste, and they're usually operating within a hair's breadth of failure. Not sure they really sound that much better. My amps now are efficient (left on 24/7, hardly ever get more than warm even when cranked), and they play music as clearly, that is, with more inner detail and space (not falsely exaggerated highs) and realistic tonality as my tube amps did. That's what I mean by distortion. I doubt that any tube amp can possibly operate with the same low level of measured distortion and noise, and the sound, on which I place more importance, is not any better. No security blanket required.
I believe many tube amp owners are better at self-deception. My amps will always sound this good. Your claim that SS parts wear out is BS. Other than power supply caps, there are no parts that will change over time in an audible way. Not so with tubes, and you know it, even if you won't admit it. All that fiddling and fussing, and what do you get? Great sound for a while, plenty of heat (wasted energy), then slow degradation, fear of fuses blowing, tubes arcing, bias changing.
Again, enjoy your tube amps. I understand the fascination with brightly glowing things, and the sound can be seductive while it lasts. Please stop claiming that they are superior in every way to every SS amp.
Tom E
i know of a lot of classic tube amps that are still in service decades after they were made...can't say that I have seen too many functional 1960s SS amps...
And that proves what? Simply because an amplifier is old confers no particular quality to its sound. There were and are just as many shitty tube amps as good ones. Early SS amps sounded awful; many new designs still do. A few sounded okay even back then; some now sound excellent. The technology has advanced; tube designs mostly have not, which means nothing other than that retrogrades will covet them. Do you also believe that old paper cone tweeters are superior to decent modern designs?
Are you claiming that those vintage tube amplifiers have never needed work, in some cases massive overhauls, or that the original tubes still perform adequately?
Tom E
"And that proves what? Simply because an amplifier is old confers no particular quality to its sound"
You made it clear you had a beef with the reliability and longetivity of the amps not with the sound quality of your BAT VK60.
No doubt there are many poor tube amps. But nearly all SS amps are shitty.
" The technology has advanced; tube designs mostly have not,"¨
This is a complete fallacy and completely ignores the benefits of advancement in materials technology as applied to modern tube amps. Not to mention the development of completely new tubes in the last 15 years (KR Audio, Emission labs etc.). Let's not forget that there is nothing really new in SS amp design probably since the 1970s. Just better application of similar designs.
"Do you also believe that old paper cone tweeters are superior to decent modern designs? "
No, I believe ribbon, electrostatic, plasma ion and horn loaded tweeters with modern diaphrams sound the best. My current speakers have a 1 inch titanium dome loaded into a 10 inch diameter solid wood horn...sounds great. My other speakers have Be dome tweeters. In the past i have had ribbon and electorstatic speakers and I have heard a length both Acapella and Lansche speakers with ion tweeters.
Some are still original but probably recapped (a failing with all amps). So what if tubes wear out? They are designed to be easily replaced. When a transistor fails, good luck because it will probably take half the amp with it in a firey show. People will just throw most of those away because it is too expensive to repair.
...just sputter and flame and pop and hiss and smoke all on their own ?
I've never seen that in over forty years of using tube products. Is that the only brand you tried?
One of them blew an internal fuse regularly due to a minor component (diode?) failure in one of the auto-bias circuits. Other than that, they ran pretty well. I could have easily roasted marshmallows over them. Electric bill dropped by 30% after selling them.
I see posts here pretty regularly about tube amp failures, some quite spectacular, some merely perplexing. There were some notoriously inferior designs (Golden Tube or some such) that rarely ran for very long.
I know there are more reliable designs and brands that run for a long time and need only regular tube replacement. Enjoy them. I can't bother.
Peace,
Tom E
Electric bill dropped by 30% after selling them.
Let's do some Jethro math. According to Stereophile , each consumes 500W maximum which is conveniently 1 kW for a pair. Listen to them say four hours every day running full power @ $.12/kWh which works out to about $15/month. You must have a frugal power bill!
I know there are more reliable designs and brands that run for a long time and need only regular tube replacement.
Yep.
Many.
My power costs closer to $0.17/KWH. And I now have a very frugal power bill because my stereo wastes so little of it.
Now you're implying I'm a liar? Go suck a tube, Jethro.
And I now have a very frugal power bill because my stereo wastes so little of it.
Honestly, my bill is dominated in the summer by HVAC, pool pump and recharging the EV with an average annualized monthly power bill almost triple your (previous) $60 figure.
So your tube amps fit your lifestyle perfectly. I'm not saying you're extravagant, but you're not exactly conservative, either. I have no AC, can't even imagine having a pool, and no EV, although that might be cool. I do ride my bicycle and walk more than I drive my pick-up.
I'm 64, just trying to make a smaller footprint to balance people like you. No offense. Live the way you want to live, and enjoy your tube amp. I begrudge no one their enjoyment of life. Well, maybe people like Trump.
Peace,
Tom E
So your tube amps fit your lifestyle perfectly.
Ironically, my garage system consumes more power than the main system even though it is SS because I leave it on 24/7 (for optimum performance) and it is a Nelson Pass design - which means it is richly biased, aka runs hot.
The tube amps are used more infrequently.
The EV is great for getting me around the neighborhood and through the course. :)
You have a GARAGE system with a Pass power hog, and you leave it on 24/7? You are wasteful, and probably with no sense of guilt about it. You almost seem proud of it.
I hate that kind of behavior. Hate, without qualification.
I enjoy listening to music on a daily basis. In the warm months, I like to putter with the cars, motorcycle or do some reloading in the garage. Chill out.
Do you also *hate* folks who have swimming pools? The pool pump draws 11A continuously. Is that "wasteful"? By comparison, the Stasis 3 draws about 1A quiescent.
Pics in my gallery. :)
I was careful to write that I hated the behavior of crass consumerism, not the "folks." People can change their behavior if they're motivated. I have been motivated most of my adult life to be a conscientious consumer. I don't think I'm a crazy eco-nut, but I do espouse the strategy of using less to leave more. I realize many Americans, especially wealthy ones, do not share a shred of that belief, and it sickens me.
We all enjoy listening to music, often in various domestic settings. I have a total of three systems, all driven by a single source which is fed throughout the house so I can listen in the kitchen, workshop, living room. I do not use much electricity in any of the systems, and the music is beautiful. You could do the same, if you decided it was a priority to consume less power.
I know Pass amps are special. I owned a Threshold 400A in the 70's (and through the 80's) and loved it. That was before many people, even audiophiles, knew who Nelson Pass was. I was a fan. But now I see his designs as wasteful and I know there are alternatives. As I was on the leading edge of audio innovation back then (also owned one of the first 50 pairs of B&W DM6 speakers imported to the US), so I would like to be now. If I could get one power hog amplifier turned off and convert its user to a high efficiency system, I would be very happy.
I don't care to comment on your swimming pool pump. I have the feeling that you and I have very little in common other than a passion for good sound, so let's leave it at that. If a person wants to, they can get great sound while wasting less power.
Peace,
Tom E
That was before many people, even audiophiles, knew who Nelson Pass was.
I worked for a hi-fi shop in the 70s and was introduced to the 800A in 1976. My boss used one to drive his Dayton-Wright electrostats. I purchased my Stasis 3 new in '81.
I have the feeling that you and I have very little in common other than a passion for good sound, so let's leave it at that.
Yes, I enjoy the luxury of air conditioning. Today it was 97 with a heat index of 108 and will be in the mid to high 90s for the remainder of the week where I live. I don't feel the least bit *crass* using AC for comfort and health.
If a person wants to, they can get great sound while wasting less power.
Sorry, Texas Instruments LM3886 chip based amps simply can't drive the electrostats in either of my music systems.
I can handle heat and humidity for only so long, then hide in the basement and read read read. Constant 90's is a bit of a trial without AC, I admit. I realize there are necessities. I resent excess.
Interesting we both had early exposure to Pass gear. I also had GAS junk and Luxman when it was good. I had a local shop that really knew their stuff, taught me a lot. Now a lost resource for newbies. Guess they rely on the net now.
For you new guys out there: there is a way to have a beautiful stereo that operates efficiently. But electrostatic speakers probably is not the way to do it! You'll need some big ass amps, and that means lots of juice.
These little chip amps (they're actually far more sophisticated with a nested LM318 besides the LM3886) can drive my buddy's Eggleston Andra's to realistic levels, but they're maxed out for sure. Very sweet, tube-like.
Peace,
Tom E
But electrostatic speakers probably is not the way to do it! You'll need some big ass amps, and that means lots of juice.
Juice in the sense of power supply stiffness and drive to handle the reactive loads as opposed to watts.
Even my preamp's power supply has more twice the energy as those chip amps.
Bragging about the size and stiffness of your power supply?
Who gives a shit?
So it goes ..........
Who gives a shit?
Such is important only to those with challenging speaker loads or those who wish the best sound quality.
Of course it's important, but how much is too much? With a tube preamp, though, I can understand a bigger supply would be critical. If power is used efficiently, perhaps not so critical.
I have a passive preamp, so no supply needed at all! System is very dynamic, and I've had quite a few different preamps, including tubed.
> Of course it's important, but how much is too much?
I've never encountered "too much". For comparison, the base Mauro design has two joules of energy storage (27,200 uF @ 12V) according to the schematic. My earlier comment was based on an implementation of that design I found that had 20 joules (60,000 uF @ 25V).
By comparison, the Stasis 3 has 105 joules and the pair of VTL amps, 500.
My experience is that high storage energy amplification provides better resolution and dynamic impact. Back in the 70s, I did some DIY work to an Audire power amp. Tripling the capacitance made a noticeable difference.
Everything is relative.
I wonder if that Stasis supply is the same as the 400A? Bigger? Nelson does like those big caps, and using, sometimes wasting, all that power.
It has been demonstrated that additional capacitance in the MyRef and other chip amps does not necessarily yield better sonics. That might be true for more than just this circuit, but in many other cases where commercial considerations led to undersized PS, more cap is indeed desirable. You're right: it's all relative. These things are not intended to break windows. But they do make really sweet sound, and plenty of it.
It has been demonstrated that additional capacitance in the MyRef and other chip amps does not necessarily yield better sonics.
Sorry to hear that.
"Very sweet, tube-like"
Doubtful at best.
and yes I have heard a number of chip amps. I have also owned a couple of Class D amps and heard more than a dozen others of all manufacture types. None have anything remotely like a "tube like" sound.
I wonder what poster Mel thinks of his thread.
It has turned into a debate between several members and has not addressed the posters problem in quite a while.
Maybe some phone numbers could be exchanged and these pointless conversations can be done on someone elses' time.
You voice your opinion and let it stand,if it truly can stand on its' own two feet.
Taking people on your own personal joy-ride doesn't help anyone-maybe the poster,but there are other places to post at least half this nonsense.And being notified that somebody has posted something new to the topic,only to find this clever bickering.
Oh what the H--L,none of us has anything important to say anyway..Go at it.
Tom:cat
Mel has already answered, plus he's double stacked up on the popcorn by now ...
Not my usual policy, but I can't resist any longer. You insult me, call me a liar, have heard my system without me knowing you were in my house, know everything about audio. You seem to be a real snob and a class A jerk.
My amps are not anything like Class D, which left me unsatisfied, and they are not a simple chip amp. I have owned and heard many types of tube amps, and these project the same natural tonality, inner detail, and spatiality without any of the heat, distortion, or noise. They were designed by a knowledgeable man who had zero commercial interest and cared only about the sound they produced. You recently bemoaned the dearth of innovation in SS circuitry. Here is an innovation of which you know absolutely nothing and you have never heard. Enjoy your ignorance.
1. Print out this post of yours;
2. Frame it, and hang on the wall, right before your eyes, so you can always see it, when you type something on the keyboard;
3. Have a good look at it EVERY time, when you have an itch to advise someone else how to behave on a web forum, and whether to call someone a "moron".
How's that? Seems fair to me.
I don't begin every post wherein I disagree with someone by calling them a moron or some other derogatory name. This guy's behavior toward me was getting provocatively arrogant, and I don't like being looked down on. To me, that qualifies as snobbish and jerky behavior. I did not call him a moron.You're still the leader among name-callers, so put one of your juvenile posts on your wall. Better yet, print out my posts, put them on your wall, and throw darts at them or set fire to them. Find some other way to channel all that anger.
You know, I did say some positive things about you, but I guess you want to ignore that.
Do not stalk me or you will be reported to the mods.
Edits: 07/24/15
"Not my usual policy, but I can't resist any longer. You insult me, call me a liar, have heard my system without me knowing you were in my house, know everything about audio. You seem to be a real snob and a class A jerk.
"
Says the man calling me a snob and jerk for no apparent reason. Where did I insult you? Where did I call you a liar? When did I claim to hear your system or even make a direct comment about it other than to be doubtful your chip amp sounds sweet like a tube amp?? You are the jerk with your pseudo environmentalist BS about power consumption and consumerism...a man with not one, not two but THREE systems!! Do you leave them on all the time?? Bet you do because you think they consume so little, right? I turn mine on 30 minutes before I listen and off immediately after but I am a power hog while you are Mr. Saint Three Systems!
"My amps are not anything like Class D"
I know that is why I also mentioned chip amps...get it? I heard one of the first chip amps ever (47 labs) when the German importer first started to carry it. Is it using the same National Semiconductor chip as yours?? Probably similar. I heard it with the maxed out power supply tubes...not bad at all...didn't sound even remotely like a good tube amp though.
"these project the same natural tonality, inner detail, and spatiality "
I am sure you think they do...
"You recently bemoaned the dearth of innovation in SS circuitry. Here is an innovation of which you know absolutely nothing and you have never heard"
A) A chip amp is not novel anymore...try 15 years ago...
B) As stated above I heard the one that kicked off the whole gain clone trend. Heard a few of the later ones as well. Better sounding than Class D for sure but not a good tube amp, not buying it.
You dismiss my perception: can't possibly be that way. That's calling me a liar, and makes it seem as though you have heard my amp. How else could you make such judgments?
Oh yeah, you heard a simple chip amp years ago. 47 Labs was a rip off. They charged like $1500 or something for less than a couple hundred bucks of parts, including enclosures. Thus was born the gainclone movement, but there has been some improvement and innovation.
This amp uses the same Nat Semi LM3886, but goes quite a bit beyond that with another opamp nested in the feedback loop forming a current pump. Carefully selected, super-premium passive parts are used throughout. You've never heard it, and it sounds nothing like a simple chip amp. It sounds better than most SS amps and some of the tube amps I have heard. Who is in a better position to make a comparison? Do you understand why I'm insulted by your dismissal? This amp is not the ultimate, and it's not overwhelmingly powerful, but it might be an alternative to modest but power-hogging Class A and tubes. I would like people to at least open their minds to the fact that there might be something better. So far, the posters here cannot accept the possibility, and that's a shame. Without any experience, you already know it can't happen. It's just not heavy or hot enough to be a REAL amplifier.
I don't leave any system on except the main one. The main system consumes a few watts if not playing anything, and, even when it does, it's very efficient. You could hold the heatsinks in the palm of your hand, and they barely get warm. At idle, it probably consumes about as much power as an alarm clock.
The other two systems are very modest, all driven by the main system sources. Workshop system consists of a salvaged Nakamichi receiver that had a busted preamp PCB. It has been gutted except for the PS/power amp stage (discrete components, gets a bit warm at idle), now hooked up to a passive volume control, driving unique 2-way speakers I built myself using Peerless drivers. In the kitchen I have a tiny class T amp with SEAS coaxial speakers in homemade enclosures. I probably spent less money (but far more time and effort) on all three systems combined than some have spent on a single fancy tube amp, and altogether they probably consume much less power. Your insults are misdirected.
Tom E
"You dismiss my perception: can't possibly be that way. That's calling me a liar,"
No, that is implying you are deaf...not a liar. Big difference.
With the rather large external power supplies the 47 labs was a not so simple chip amp. It sounded fine for a basic sound.
"Do you understand why I'm insulted by your dismissal? This amp is not the ultimate, and it's not overwhelmingly powerful, but it might be an alternative to modest but power-hogging Class A and tubes"
Umm, you have a skin the thickness of rice paper maybe? We are talking about amps, man...I didn't call you or your family a name or something. I know it's not the ultimate, or powerful. I take exception with your contention that it is a viable alternative to serious "power hogging" designs.
I know more than a few tooby guys using chip amps now on their Horns , tri-amping them and not missing toobs, I know , deaf huh ... :)
Edits: 07/26/15
I know , deaf huh ... :)
You said it...
Triamping with tubes can get too hot for even a tube guy. I had a friend triamping his Apogee Grands (only used the built-in Krells for the subs) with 3 x NAT monoblocks per channel. The heat in his room was staggering...but damn did it sound good.
That's because they're unbiased...
Sorry, couldn't resist.
R.
They were designed by a knowledgeable man who had zero commercial interest99% of the active circuitry of the amp was designed by Texas Instruments and found in two ICs. Adding a power supply, a handful of support resistors, caps, connectors and cabinet doesn't constitute very much.
I can assure you that TI most definitely has *commercial interest*. :)
Edits: 07/23/15
Reductio ad absurdum, in fact. I'm well aware he didn't design the chips. Actually, the chips were designed by National Semiconductor, not TI, and they're superb. Nothing wrong with chips, unless you're stuck in the past. It's all about implementation, layout, and passive component values and quality. You can't shake a box full of IC's and get a decent amp, much less a superlative one. I spent a couple years experimenting with that handful of caps and resistors to get the best combination: copper foil/PP film caps, naked Vishay's, no magnetic parts, etc.
I have to concur that i have heard good implementation of chip amps , well better than most would think , best with speakers of hi sensitivity and efficiency , the sound belies their low cost and size.
Regards
Your use of the word "designer" stretches reality.
He implemented the amplifier. :)
Did your amp's designer design the tubes? I specifically used the word implementation.
That's all you took away from that last post? I'm done.
Sorry, I was responding to this comment: They were designed by a knowledgeable man who had zero commercial interest
Did your amp's designer design the tubes?
There is a vast difference between someone who designs an amp using their choice of active devices, passive support circuitry AND topology via either individual semiconductors and/or tubes vs. one who has ZERO control over a canned highly complicated integrated circuit.
I'm not so sure the chip is in the amp ....... :)
Madisonears, So Static is less like Trump more like Obama ..?" I begrudge no one their enjoyment of life. Well, maybe people like Trump."
- Madisonears
Edits: 07/22/15 07/22/15
I have no idea what you mean. I won't be dragged into a silly political argument, and this is certainly not the place for it. I am sorry I used Trump as a reference, but he is universally recognized and really does set a standard for being ostentatious.
Peace,
Tom E
Agree ,yes he can be just that and he is not alone in our society today and please, you brought it up, and since One pays his own way and the other has a life history of feeding off the proles , not sure why you would want to target one for waste and not the other ..
..
Regards
Edits: 07/22/15
Yeah, poor Saint Donald has risen from humble beginnings and selflessly dedicated his life to making the world a better place for others, but Obama has selfishly given nothing of his time or energy while amassing a huge fortune drawing from the public trough, risking nothing and leaving our country a mess so much worse than it was before his time in office.
Have a good night thinking about that.
Madisonears ,Is this the kind of stuff you dream up when hiding from 96 deg heat in the basement, surely with all that cash you saved using chip amps you could get yourself two wind generators , one will do the ac system ( lower temps will cut down the hallucinations) the other will charge the batteries and power the rest of the house , with a few solar panels , you are good.
Cool in the summer , warm in the winter , saving the planet and Hey , even get yourself a ESL , you could invite static over for a listen and or a round of golf , live a little ...
Cheers ...
Edits: 07/23/15
Had to laugh. Yeah, maybe I'm crazy from hiding in the cellar, reading too many books.
One recent selection: "Guantanamo and the Abuse of Presidential Power." A little outdated already, but still relevant and shockingly revealing of the crap going on in our government eight years ago.
We do generate some of the local utility's power with wind. Not sure, but maybe every US utility does so now. Unheard of twenty years ago. We CAN change. Solar is a better fit for residential generation, but utility has now increased monthly service charge so payback is extended considerably. I actually pay more per kwh now that I use less of it.
Yep , I do quite a bit of reading myself, sadly it got worst after 2008 than was promised , hate to think where we are heading with all these conflicts. As to the hi -fi , large pure sinewave power inverters with battery power and solar charger is a better way to go with the hi fi , sonics will be improved over Utility power and with green running to boot, Battery quality is pretty important , get the 130 lb beasties ..
You could even go class-A to heat the basement ... :)
Works well for me ...
Had a few Audire products during the 80's , good stuff ....
I've measured some mid 2000-ish amps. Interesting, or they just lied on the original numbers!!!!
So distortion doesn't seem to be a relevant component of the continued tube/SS debate.
Oh distortion matters a lot...just not the way that most people and especially meter readers think it matters. What matters is what the ear is sensitive to and not necessarily what the scope is sensitive to. It turns out that the weighting of harmonics is very far from linear with regard to audibility...not a surprise and it has been know for nearly 80 years but it is convenient to ignore when you have another agenda.
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