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Looking for a recommendation for an amplifier to drive a newly upgraded Von Schweikert speaker. Upgrade has heavily danped woofers with very heavily damped transmission line. My own amplifier, a Sim W-5, sounds beautiful on mids and higher, but anemic on bass. Need a higher damping factor, I am told.It's been a very long time since I bought an amp.
Parasound A21 has been recommended.
Any suggestions? Tubes?
Thanks,
Mel
Edits: 07/16/15Follow Ups:
can ya blame him! If this was my first post on this forum, and after reading all the rants, I would be hesitant to take any advice given here.
Can't we all just get along and listen to our stereos?
charles
No, I'm still here and have read and appreciated all the comments. I don't buy equipment very often. Had the amp for 12 years; had the speakers for 9 years and still counting. And I am not a new inmate. I post most often on the vinyl board.
Based on some advice here and from the speaker designer, I will try the Parasound A21 on approval. AVS insists upon a solid state amp, at least to drive the woofers. What I prefer, and what I had, was a solid state amp and preamp that lets the quality of source component tubes (including tube rolling) come through clearly.
Thanks to everyone who posted.
Mel
You have over-damped bass and yet need to damp it even MORE?!?You ought to try an amp with a lower DF than the Sim.
Borrow a PP valve amp of about the same power, but with a modern - IE SS Soft recovery diodes and large storage (even a choke or two) - PSU.
You may end up with heavier bass than you like, but you won't end up with less bass, which is what a higher DF amp will do.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Edits: 07/22/15
Class D Audio SDS-270. Superb control of highly damped large woofers and very good sonics everywhere else. Another alternative would be the Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2 for the same reasons.
Provided you're right about superior bass control of highly damped woofers - I wonder what the OP would lose everywhere else, going with a budget product at 1/5 list price.
Have to be careful with what others perceive as tight bass, most who do, would give an acoustic bass a big Fail, if they actually heard one.
Regards
Nt
try it! you know you want to!
.... with posts like this.
You see, people in this forum, when they see unqualified "Tubes suck" assertion, immediately know that they're dealing with someone who has no experience with tubes, at best - and with just an obnoxious moron, at worst.
In any case, you can be sure the rest of your post will be ignored.
That behavior is juvenile, boorish at best. I've seen you call enough posters morons or worse simply because they don't worship at the same audio altar as you.I like your constructive contributions when you make them, but perhaps you should rein in this tendency to use offensive labels for those with whom you disagree. It contributes nothing useful.
And tubes do suck. I've owned very expensive monoblock tube amps. They sucked.
Tom E
Edits: 07/19/15
... - under "+/-1" - agrees with you below. Well, that one deserves what he gets, and much more - only restricted by the rules of the forum. I guess schmo'llins forgot to tell you how many times he was kicked out (unfortunately, only temporarily) from Digital forums, for posting offensive garbage, despite being explicitly told by moderator not to. Oh well...As for the rest. This is NOT a popularity contest - however, looks like I'm doing pretty good in this particular case. I'm entitled to my opinion about people, just like you are entitled to yours about tubes, someone's behavior etc. I will continue to express my opinion as I see fit, and don't really give a damn whether someone is happy about it,
"Tubes suck" - again, if you're not going to qualify that with "my tube amps sucked", "they weren't a match with my speakers", or "my ability to put a system together sucks" - see my previous post for the reasons why.
Edits: 07/20/15
You certainly are entitled to your opinion about AUDIO, but why is it always passed through the filter of a personal vendetta or anger? This site is dedicated to audio. Please try to keep it that way.You are not entitled to express your opinion about the posters here, whether or not you agree with them. I see a lot of really stupid posts, but calling the posters morons does no one any good. Do you think insulting someone's intelligence and calling them names is the best way to persuade them to your point of view? It's juvenile, unnecessary, and not productive in any way save venting your own anger. Find another outlet. Just because your posts squeak by the forum rules, doesn't mean they're appropriate or appreciated.
Simple. Write about audio. Leave insulting people out of it.
And my system now without tubes is quite amazing.
Tom E
Edits: 07/20/15
My original post saying "tubes suck" was done tongue in cheek to highlight the stupidity seen here regularly in the ignorant generalizations made about class d amps and those who prefer them.
There exists a certain subset of audio aficionados who insist on the object superiority of their gear. It reeks of insecurity and a lack of awareness. Boys will be boys, so it goes...
Thank you for sharing your viewpoint. It was a refreshing reminder that one can be both an audiophile and an adult.
try it! you know you want to!
"And tubes do suck. I've owned very expensive monoblock tube amps. They sucked."
Sucked a lot of power...yeah that I can believe.
The heat those tubes put out is scary.
Can I live with that? Yes, absolutely.
Speaking of 6C33C, I just got a pair of 6C33C based monos from a German company called Wall Audio. 2 per channel and about 35 watts or so of power. Kick the butt of my Odeons so far (only had them 2 days so far).
45 Wpc, parallel SET, 2 6C33C per channel, 1 x 6SL7 as input, 1 x 6SN7 as driver.
It's anything but "mushy, flabby bass", "blurred and slow drum set", "rolled-off highs", or any other nonsense, which is generously sprinkled around here by those devoid of experience.
Yeah these new ones are 35 watt Parallel SET with shunt regulated input and driver (ECC82s both tubes). Output transformer uses Ni and Co alloy. Bass is very powerful...much more so than my JJ 322 but the texture of the JJ is just superb...not clear if this new one is up to that standard or not yet. Mids are big and palpable but still open. Highs are not as delicate as the 300B amp but that is not a huge surprise I think.
.... "sweet and delicate", and more about "big, bold and powerful".
Suits the music I listen to perfectly, but I can see why someone else would prefer other designs, supplying more of the traditional "tube magic" sound.
As far as heat - 4 of those heat monsters is as many as I would tolerate in my smallish 16' x 11' listening room, with low ceiling too (basement). Looks like yours are run more conservatively, being rated at 35 Wpc.
Well, I took some time to listen to one of my better recorded Jazz records (Korean singer, album called Lento on ACT label) and the transparency through the upper mids of the new amps is stunning. Very pure sounding with just a light dusting of sweetness. Not quite a projected as the JJ 322 but still very palpable and alive there. The upper highs are slightly subdued but interestingly it is not a dark sound like one would usually get with dynamically constricted highs. This suggests that there is not the constriction just a generally lower level of output. So far I am liking quite a bit what I hear and it is clearly perfect for long listening sessions...it makes you want to dig out more music rather than turn them off. The JJ is more "lit up" but I think that is what really well designed 300B amps do best. Bass texture is perhaps still slightly better with the JJ but the power in the bass is clearly in the court of the new amp (it is a german brand Wall Audio and the model is the Opus M50). Not that the JJ felt lightweight but it doesn't have the Gravitas. It could be also due to transformer types. The JJ is using very thin laminate double "C" cores with grain oriented steel, which the M50s use EI types with very thin laminates of Ni and Co alloy. Some of the fullness from the new amps could be some onset of core saturation giving a bit of harmonic "fullness". The JJs OPTs are so oversized and of the core type that saturation is unlikely and you really hear nice bass texture.
I think despite the projection of the 300B the tonal color of the Opus M50 is more right through the mids and it is utterly grainless for both amps. Short of spending Kondo money I don't think I can do a whole lot better (preamp evalautions are still ongoing).
Morri,
there is not much on the internet about the Opus M50 , are they selling direct ..? Lots of dollars for so few watts .. 12K a pr ..
Well, you and I both know that its the quality of the watts that counts. If I wanted just lots of watts I would just get a big cheap profi amp and be done with it.
Not direct, there are a few dealers, almost all in Germany. It is a small German company even though it has been in business for a long time it stayed small. Nice products though...
This guy who did the report, Kim Key, picked it as a most wanted item for their site for 2014 even before he has finished the proper review. This is a guy who has heard the best of tubes (Kondo, Thrax etc. etc.). They are priced a bit more sensibly in Germany and I got mine as show demo models.
12K a Pr ...
Edits: 07/22/15
Joule Electra Right of Passage amps driving Magnepan 20.1s at Sea Cliff. I met Jud Barber in Atlanta years ago and found him to be a fascinating guy.
You could supply a few MiG Foxbats with that many 6C33s. :)
I can't even imagine how hot those things must get. I had a pair of Silvaweld OTL reference monos that hand only 4 of those things per channel and it cooked my room to the point where I said "enough!" and I sold them off. Made my room swelter.
Now the new ones are only 4 tubes total and they are getting quite warm, especially compared to my Pset 300B amp, but still under control compared to the NAT I just got rid of. Only the Silvaweld OTLs got hotter than the (hybrid with transistor output but man the heat!) NAT.
KSA 200 was the biggest space heater I ever had, pulled 12 amps idling, That NAT must have been perfect during the winter months Morri and you still get to play with the toobs.Anyway,
Agree or disagree subjectively about Audio systems is one thing, peddling toobs as being as or more reliable than SS gear will require some of your special Bong juice for acceptance Morri.
Regards.
Edits: 07/21/15
Think about this logically for a moment. What is the main thing that fails with a tube amp?? The tubes, right? The rest of the amp is usually very simple in comparison to a SS amp. When tubes fail they are simple to replace, no? Even if you have to bias them (many amps you don't need to do this) it is still a 10 minute job. The circuit is usually simple enough that if more serious problems arise a skilled technician can reverse engineer the schematic.
Now, when a transistor amp fails...well it is usually pretty terminal and requires a very experienced person...and a good schematic in order to repair it. It will not be possible to reverse engineer the schematic in most cases.
Now, while I will agree with you that an SS amp will fail less often in general (there have been notable exceptions to this...you just have forgotten your history), when they fail it is often catastrophic. A tube amp might fail more often but 80% of the time it is a simple tube swap and then off and running again for another 5-10 years.
You and some others seem to be making a big noise about tube amp problems but they are relatively unproblematic in general and easier to fix when things go wrong.
Morri, Really..!
You can have your subjective Sound with Tubes, But there is no way you are going to convince anyone tubes are more reliable than SS, funny stuff thou...
Regards...
Edits: 07/27/15
... and at 86 I'm sure interested in reliability. The last two failures I had -- earlier this year -- were of solid state gear. That's been the pattern throughout my history with this hobby.
Yeah, I'm sure there are badly made SS gear , a rarity thou with SS , failures that is ..
Regards
Edits: 08/01/15
Rare, you say? My tubed audio system (it's in Inmate Systems) is reliable, extremely musical and involving, and a joy in general. My solid state HT setup (Sharp Aquos TV, Marantz receiver, Oppo Blu-ray/DVD player, Comcast cable box, Apple TV, multiple HDMI cables) has been nothing but trouble. I'm on my 3rd cable box, 2nd receiver (and the second one is just as unwillng to work with the TV as the first one was), I'm currently reduced to going straight from the cable box to the TV, thus eliminating the benefits of external speakers and the option of headphone listening. A tech shop recommended by Sharp has tried hard to solve this problem and ultimately given up.
Oh, and the furnace room is a museum of non-working stuff, all SS, that I think MUST be fixable because SS is so damn reliable, don'tcha know.
Sorry to hear this Dave , now a show of hands , anyone with a collection of bad SS amps, err, excluding cable boxes of course .. :)
Sorry Dave tooob's can't win the objective reliabilty test , not possible , why AR alone keeps fedex humming :)
"collection of bad SS amps"
No, because they get chucked out like yesterday's newspaper as they are either unrepairable or not worth repairing in the first place...
What about bad Feedback SS , euphonics with reliability ...:)
Looks like something was not adjusted properly in that amp or there are design flaws. It is using optical biasing of the output transistors and who knows what kind of non-linear can go wrong there?
Certainly won't sound like a good tube amp...particularly a SET.
Morri,Do you level match when comparing side by side or are your comparisons memory based. Some years ago , I did anger a bunch of my ESL biased friends , after they requested to turn off the "slow" subwoofers , of course i only pretended to power them down and the night went on without a nary or a hitch ..... :)
complaint free Audio And so it goes .....
Regards
Edits: 08/01/15
I level match using a Behringer DEQ 2496 digital equalizeer and pink noise generator to set usually within 1 db. Works quite well acutally.
I have found that a good servo sub can keep up with planars and/or horns without an issue. If you have some phase control then you don't have to get all crazy about placement, however, I have found that for time coherent speakers it is really critical to place the sub in as close to a time-aligned placement as possible or it will sound slow.
My Mirage BPS210 works well when placed correctly. The only drawback it that it will not play super loud. It is very "fast" though and has a lot of controls for blending with the speakers. I get a great blend with either my Ref 3as or my Odeons.
JA goes on: "Below that point, the Edge does offer excellent measured performance; above it, the extra distortion on musical peaks will only last for the duration of the transient, which will work against audibility. Only on sustained high-level music will the Edge's sound become harsh"
In other words, a POS.
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich
No , a Euphonic power instrument and with the right matched setup will produce toob like euphonics of added ambiance and reality ..
So it goes ....
@Mel, take a look at the ATI amplifiers , very robustly built , not sure of the sonics , trying to ascertaining that myself ...
Regards
Edits: 08/01/15
I didn't notice. As for space heaters, the gentle giant VTL Wotans take the cake with twenty-four 6550Cs per amp. :)
I have found the 6C33C to run WAY hotter than a 6550, they are insane really. They run hotter than a 845 or 211 as well. THe Joule has what, 12 or more per monoblock? THat is 800 watts per mono (not running full Class A I guess)! My new monos with only 2 of them per channel runs 250 watts per mono, Compare that with a 300B that runs in Class A only 290 watts for a parallel stereo SET. So the equivalent number of output and input tubes (2 per channel) yields nearly double the power consumption to a 300B. Last time I checked the 300B has about the same power consumption as the 6550 in Class A. So, I would guess then that the Rite of Passage monos consume about as much power as the big VTLs despite having half the tubes.
THat is 800 watts per mono (not running full Class A I guess)!
Consumption from wall, yes. They run class A producing 200 watts into 8 ohms and 150 into 4.
Joule Electra specs
So, I would guess then that the Rite of Passage monos consume about as much power as the big VTLs despite having half the tubes.
As it turns out, they consume slightly less than my MB-450s which max out at 1 kW using eight 6550s per amp. I couldn't find consumption figures for the Wotan, but the smaller MB750 with half as many tubes draw 1.3 kW each. The 1.2 kW output Wotan is likely closer to drawing 2 kW.
Ok, 800 watts per mono (I was thinking for the pair somehow) would get to Class A 200 watts I guess (about 25% efficiency). Consumption from the wall is what matters with regard to heating a room. If only 25% is being transformed to music signal at MAXIMUM then with normal listening nearly all is waste heat. Let's say 5 watts on average then 5/800 = 0.6% music and 99.4% heat or 795 x 2 = 1590 watts of heat. At full power it would be 1600-400 = 1200 watts of heat.
Most of the time your MB450s are MUCH lower consumption because they are largely Class B. What is the idle consumption? Probably a 100 watts or maybe 200 watts at idle. Also at Max power the amp is what? around 450watts in tetrode? 425/1000 = 43% music power and 570 watts of heat = 1140 watts max. At idle they are 300 watts. Let's say then that 5 watts is still more or less Class A operation (I will assume that the consumption doesn't go higher for a 5 watt output) then 5/300 = 1.7% signal and 98.3% heat or 295 watts x2 = 590 watts as compared to 1590 watts...big difference. My new Wall Audio monos consume about the same at idle (500 watts) as your big monos (600 watts) for 1/10th the max output power (35 watts vs. 425 watts).
The mighty Siegfried is closer at 600watts idle per mono. Since most listening is done closer to idle than full power then we have to say that the Rite of Passage will generate more heat than even the Siegfried. The Siegfried seems to be biased deeper in Class A than the MB450 though (300 watts idle for 8 output tubes vs. 600 watts idle for 12 output tubes). With the same bias the Siegfried should have a 450 watt idle. Interesting.
According to Stereophile the mighty Wotan was 650W at idle, so far less Class A bias than either of the two amps above and still less heat output most of the time than the Rite of Passage monos.
uncomfortable to the point of acting like absolute idiots (or jerks-see below) when presented with opinions that challenge their reality. We seem to see this here ad nauseam...
try it! you know you want to!
+1 about the offensive labels. It's pretty much expected and tolerated from this inmate even though he's been kicked off Computer Audio, Hi-Res, and the Digital forums numerous times.-1 about tubes suck.
Like SS, it depends. I've owned many of both technologies, and it depends. ;-)
Edits: 07/20/15 07/20/15
I've owned very expensive monoblock tube amps. They sucked.
you made a poor choice.
Your post, besides being snide and condescending, is wrong: I made a very good choice. I got away from noisy, fragile, unreliable, energy-wasting tubes after a couple years of frustration. Oh, I've heard how good tubes can sound, and my VK-60's made some pretty sweet music. But the heat, electricity and other expenses, plus their general unreliability (yes, even BAT!) made me very happy to get a SS amp that does everything they did at a fraction of the purchase and operating cost and with less distortion, and it will always sound exactly the same and not fail for probably 20 years.
Keep yer tubes if you must; I don't hold it against anyone. They're not for everyone, though.
Peace,
Tom E
I agree that tubes sound very nice when they are operating perfectly, which is rare.
Not to question YOUR experience but I doubt that this is the case for most tube amp owners. It is rare for a tube amp to not be working properly.
I've owned many tube amps over the years including the ones listed below along with the tube types I used. All but one* worked perfectly while I owned them.
Conrad-Johnson Premier 11a (6550 or KT88)
AES/Cary SixPac monoblocks (EL34)
Cary CAD-808/Rocket 88 (KT88)
Cary 45 SET monoblocks (45)
Cary Xciter Integrated (6L6)
Audio Research VT100mkII (6550)
Audio Research VT50 (6550 or KT88)
Audio Research VSi-60 Integrated (KT120)
*Manley Neo-Classic 250 (EL34 or 6CA7)
Rogue Stereo 90 Super Magnum (KT90 or KT120)
Rogue Cronus Magnum Integrated (KT90 or KT120)
and probably a few I forgot to list.
* Got a bad batch of EL34 tubes that caused a couple cathode resistors to pop in each Manley monoblock. It can be argued that even this amp worked perfectly. The cathode resistors did their job protecting the amp. I replaced the resistors and retubed using the more hefty 6CA7 and all was fine.
If power consumption and heat are a major issue for you, you might consider a Class D amp. There are several out there from $100 to $15,000 or more.
Thanks, Abe. I never tire of reading your extensive adventures with so many different amps. I've owned a dozen or so myself, but only one pair of tube power amps and one tube preamp. Neither worked well for me. If there are so many others that are perfectly reliable, then perhaps I was merely unlucky. Somehow I doubt that, despite your personal testimony.
I owned a pair of Channel Islands Class D amps, sort of a lower-priced upper-end Class D. They sounded okay, but their transformers hummed terribly and drove me nuts. I would describe their sound as accurate but unrealistic. You have tried enough amps to know what that means.
I cannot abide noise from a stereo, which was one big reason why I disliked the CI Class D, and it's also a factor why I dislike tubes. They often make noise. There is no valid reason for a stereo to hiss or hum, ever. Mine now is so quiet I really do not know it's on until music plays.
Peace,
Tom E
I got away from noisy, fragile, unreliable, energy-wasting tubes after a couple years of frustration.
There are many other choices available that are neither noisy, fragile nor unreliable. Energy wasting?
They're not for everyone, though.
Agreed.
"Oh, I've heard how good tubes can sound, and my VK-60's made some pretty sweet music"
Ah, so they didn't suck!! Just sucked a lot of power...like I said, I can believe that. But if you go with Class A SS amps they are also amps that "sucks".
"with less distortion, and it will always sound exactly the same and not fail for probably 20 years"
What does that mean "with less distortion"?? Did you find the BATs to sound distorted?? You just said above that they made some pretty sweet music. If you mean on an oscilloscope I would ask you how is that relevant to your listening experience?? Does it give you a security blanket to know that you have only .001% THD even if it doesn't sound as good (despite what you tell yourself?) Parts age in SS amps to and they for sure change sound over time...as to failure...I have seen just as many dead SS amps as tube amps and the SS amps are harder to repair.
Your post is a model of self-contradiction and self-deception.
I agree that tubes sound very nice when they are operating perfectly, which is rare. Of course a SS amp can fail, but usually they don't just sputter and flame and pop and hiss and smoke all on their own. Most SS failures are induced by careless owners or simple age (typically, PS) after many years of reliable service. Just from my own experience and reading numerous posts here, I know there are likely to be many more failed tube amps.
I would never consider Class A amps because of all the power they waste, and they're usually operating within a hair's breadth of failure. Not sure they really sound that much better. My amps now are efficient (left on 24/7, hardly ever get more than warm even when cranked), and they play music as clearly, that is, with more inner detail and space (not falsely exaggerated highs) and realistic tonality as my tube amps did. That's what I mean by distortion. I doubt that any tube amp can possibly operate with the same low level of measured distortion and noise, and the sound, on which I place more importance, is not any better. No security blanket required.
I believe many tube amp owners are better at self-deception. My amps will always sound this good. Your claim that SS parts wear out is BS. Other than power supply caps, there are no parts that will change over time in an audible way. Not so with tubes, and you know it, even if you won't admit it. All that fiddling and fussing, and what do you get? Great sound for a while, plenty of heat (wasted energy), then slow degradation, fear of fuses blowing, tubes arcing, bias changing.
Again, enjoy your tube amps. I understand the fascination with brightly glowing things, and the sound can be seductive while it lasts. Please stop claiming that they are superior in every way to every SS amp.
Tom E
i know of a lot of classic tube amps that are still in service decades after they were made...can't say that I have seen too many functional 1960s SS amps...
And that proves what? Simply because an amplifier is old confers no particular quality to its sound. There were and are just as many shitty tube amps as good ones. Early SS amps sounded awful; many new designs still do. A few sounded okay even back then; some now sound excellent. The technology has advanced; tube designs mostly have not, which means nothing other than that retrogrades will covet them. Do you also believe that old paper cone tweeters are superior to decent modern designs?
Are you claiming that those vintage tube amplifiers have never needed work, in some cases massive overhauls, or that the original tubes still perform adequately?
Tom E
"And that proves what? Simply because an amplifier is old confers no particular quality to its sound"
You made it clear you had a beef with the reliability and longetivity of the amps not with the sound quality of your BAT VK60.
No doubt there are many poor tube amps. But nearly all SS amps are shitty.
" The technology has advanced; tube designs mostly have not,"¨
This is a complete fallacy and completely ignores the benefits of advancement in materials technology as applied to modern tube amps. Not to mention the development of completely new tubes in the last 15 years (KR Audio, Emission labs etc.). Let's not forget that there is nothing really new in SS amp design probably since the 1970s. Just better application of similar designs.
"Do you also believe that old paper cone tweeters are superior to decent modern designs? "
No, I believe ribbon, electrostatic, plasma ion and horn loaded tweeters with modern diaphrams sound the best. My current speakers have a 1 inch titanium dome loaded into a 10 inch diameter solid wood horn...sounds great. My other speakers have Be dome tweeters. In the past i have had ribbon and electorstatic speakers and I have heard a length both Acapella and Lansche speakers with ion tweeters.
Some are still original but probably recapped (a failing with all amps). So what if tubes wear out? They are designed to be easily replaced. When a transistor fails, good luck because it will probably take half the amp with it in a firey show. People will just throw most of those away because it is too expensive to repair.
...just sputter and flame and pop and hiss and smoke all on their own ?
I've never seen that in over forty years of using tube products. Is that the only brand you tried?
One of them blew an internal fuse regularly due to a minor component (diode?) failure in one of the auto-bias circuits. Other than that, they ran pretty well. I could have easily roasted marshmallows over them. Electric bill dropped by 30% after selling them.
I see posts here pretty regularly about tube amp failures, some quite spectacular, some merely perplexing. There were some notoriously inferior designs (Golden Tube or some such) that rarely ran for very long.
I know there are more reliable designs and brands that run for a long time and need only regular tube replacement. Enjoy them. I can't bother.
Peace,
Tom E
Electric bill dropped by 30% after selling them.
Let's do some Jethro math. According to Stereophile , each consumes 500W maximum which is conveniently 1 kW for a pair. Listen to them say four hours every day running full power @ $.12/kWh which works out to about $15/month. You must have a frugal power bill!
I know there are more reliable designs and brands that run for a long time and need only regular tube replacement.
Yep.
Many.
My power costs closer to $0.17/KWH. And I now have a very frugal power bill because my stereo wastes so little of it.
Now you're implying I'm a liar? Go suck a tube, Jethro.
And I now have a very frugal power bill because my stereo wastes so little of it.
Honestly, my bill is dominated in the summer by HVAC, pool pump and recharging the EV with an average annualized monthly power bill almost triple your (previous) $60 figure.
So your tube amps fit your lifestyle perfectly. I'm not saying you're extravagant, but you're not exactly conservative, either. I have no AC, can't even imagine having a pool, and no EV, although that might be cool. I do ride my bicycle and walk more than I drive my pick-up.
I'm 64, just trying to make a smaller footprint to balance people like you. No offense. Live the way you want to live, and enjoy your tube amp. I begrudge no one their enjoyment of life. Well, maybe people like Trump.
Peace,
Tom E
So your tube amps fit your lifestyle perfectly.
Ironically, my garage system consumes more power than the main system even though it is SS because I leave it on 24/7 (for optimum performance) and it is a Nelson Pass design - which means it is richly biased, aka runs hot.
The tube amps are used more infrequently.
The EV is great for getting me around the neighborhood and through the course. :)
You have a GARAGE system with a Pass power hog, and you leave it on 24/7? You are wasteful, and probably with no sense of guilt about it. You almost seem proud of it.
I hate that kind of behavior. Hate, without qualification.
I enjoy listening to music on a daily basis. In the warm months, I like to putter with the cars, motorcycle or do some reloading in the garage. Chill out.
Do you also *hate* folks who have swimming pools? The pool pump draws 11A continuously. Is that "wasteful"? By comparison, the Stasis 3 draws about 1A quiescent.
Pics in my gallery. :)
I was careful to write that I hated the behavior of crass consumerism, not the "folks." People can change their behavior if they're motivated. I have been motivated most of my adult life to be a conscientious consumer. I don't think I'm a crazy eco-nut, but I do espouse the strategy of using less to leave more. I realize many Americans, especially wealthy ones, do not share a shred of that belief, and it sickens me.
We all enjoy listening to music, often in various domestic settings. I have a total of three systems, all driven by a single source which is fed throughout the house so I can listen in the kitchen, workshop, living room. I do not use much electricity in any of the systems, and the music is beautiful. You could do the same, if you decided it was a priority to consume less power.
I know Pass amps are special. I owned a Threshold 400A in the 70's (and through the 80's) and loved it. That was before many people, even audiophiles, knew who Nelson Pass was. I was a fan. But now I see his designs as wasteful and I know there are alternatives. As I was on the leading edge of audio innovation back then (also owned one of the first 50 pairs of B&W DM6 speakers imported to the US), so I would like to be now. If I could get one power hog amplifier turned off and convert its user to a high efficiency system, I would be very happy.
I don't care to comment on your swimming pool pump. I have the feeling that you and I have very little in common other than a passion for good sound, so let's leave it at that. If a person wants to, they can get great sound while wasting less power.
Peace,
Tom E
That was before many people, even audiophiles, knew who Nelson Pass was.
I worked for a hi-fi shop in the 70s and was introduced to the 800A in 1976. My boss used one to drive his Dayton-Wright electrostats. I purchased my Stasis 3 new in '81.
I have the feeling that you and I have very little in common other than a passion for good sound, so let's leave it at that.
Yes, I enjoy the luxury of air conditioning. Today it was 97 with a heat index of 108 and will be in the mid to high 90s for the remainder of the week where I live. I don't feel the least bit *crass* using AC for comfort and health.
If a person wants to, they can get great sound while wasting less power.
Sorry, Texas Instruments LM3886 chip based amps simply can't drive the electrostats in either of my music systems.
I can handle heat and humidity for only so long, then hide in the basement and read read read. Constant 90's is a bit of a trial without AC, I admit. I realize there are necessities. I resent excess.
Interesting we both had early exposure to Pass gear. I also had GAS junk and Luxman when it was good. I had a local shop that really knew their stuff, taught me a lot. Now a lost resource for newbies. Guess they rely on the net now.
For you new guys out there: there is a way to have a beautiful stereo that operates efficiently. But electrostatic speakers probably is not the way to do it! You'll need some big ass amps, and that means lots of juice.
These little chip amps (they're actually far more sophisticated with a nested LM318 besides the LM3886) can drive my buddy's Eggleston Andra's to realistic levels, but they're maxed out for sure. Very sweet, tube-like.
Peace,
Tom E
But electrostatic speakers probably is not the way to do it! You'll need some big ass amps, and that means lots of juice.
Juice in the sense of power supply stiffness and drive to handle the reactive loads as opposed to watts.
Even my preamp's power supply has more twice the energy as those chip amps.
Bragging about the size and stiffness of your power supply?
Who gives a shit?
So it goes ..........
Who gives a shit?
Such is important only to those with challenging speaker loads or those who wish the best sound quality.
Of course it's important, but how much is too much? With a tube preamp, though, I can understand a bigger supply would be critical. If power is used efficiently, perhaps not so critical.
I have a passive preamp, so no supply needed at all! System is very dynamic, and I've had quite a few different preamps, including tubed.
> Of course it's important, but how much is too much?
I've never encountered "too much". For comparison, the base Mauro design has two joules of energy storage (27,200 uF @ 12V) according to the schematic. My earlier comment was based on an implementation of that design I found that had 20 joules (60,000 uF @ 25V).
By comparison, the Stasis 3 has 105 joules and the pair of VTL amps, 500.
My experience is that high storage energy amplification provides better resolution and dynamic impact. Back in the 70s, I did some DIY work to an Audire power amp. Tripling the capacitance made a noticeable difference.
Everything is relative.
I wonder if that Stasis supply is the same as the 400A? Bigger? Nelson does like those big caps, and using, sometimes wasting, all that power.
It has been demonstrated that additional capacitance in the MyRef and other chip amps does not necessarily yield better sonics. That might be true for more than just this circuit, but in many other cases where commercial considerations led to undersized PS, more cap is indeed desirable. You're right: it's all relative. These things are not intended to break windows. But they do make really sweet sound, and plenty of it.
It has been demonstrated that additional capacitance in the MyRef and other chip amps does not necessarily yield better sonics.
Sorry to hear that.
"Very sweet, tube-like"
Doubtful at best.
and yes I have heard a number of chip amps. I have also owned a couple of Class D amps and heard more than a dozen others of all manufacture types. None have anything remotely like a "tube like" sound.
I wonder what poster Mel thinks of his thread.
It has turned into a debate between several members and has not addressed the posters problem in quite a while.
Maybe some phone numbers could be exchanged and these pointless conversations can be done on someone elses' time.
You voice your opinion and let it stand,if it truly can stand on its' own two feet.
Taking people on your own personal joy-ride doesn't help anyone-maybe the poster,but there are other places to post at least half this nonsense.And being notified that somebody has posted something new to the topic,only to find this clever bickering.
Oh what the H--L,none of us has anything important to say anyway..Go at it.
Tom:cat
Mel has already answered, plus he's double stacked up on the popcorn by now ...
Not my usual policy, but I can't resist any longer. You insult me, call me a liar, have heard my system without me knowing you were in my house, know everything about audio. You seem to be a real snob and a class A jerk.
My amps are not anything like Class D, which left me unsatisfied, and they are not a simple chip amp. I have owned and heard many types of tube amps, and these project the same natural tonality, inner detail, and spatiality without any of the heat, distortion, or noise. They were designed by a knowledgeable man who had zero commercial interest and cared only about the sound they produced. You recently bemoaned the dearth of innovation in SS circuitry. Here is an innovation of which you know absolutely nothing and you have never heard. Enjoy your ignorance.
1. Print out this post of yours;
2. Frame it, and hang on the wall, right before your eyes, so you can always see it, when you type something on the keyboard;
3. Have a good look at it EVERY time, when you have an itch to advise someone else how to behave on a web forum, and whether to call someone a "moron".
How's that? Seems fair to me.
I don't begin every post wherein I disagree with someone by calling them a moron or some other derogatory name. This guy's behavior toward me was getting provocatively arrogant, and I don't like being looked down on. To me, that qualifies as snobbish and jerky behavior. I did not call him a moron.You're still the leader among name-callers, so put one of your juvenile posts on your wall. Better yet, print out my posts, put them on your wall, and throw darts at them or set fire to them. Find some other way to channel all that anger.
You know, I did say some positive things about you, but I guess you want to ignore that.
Do not stalk me or you will be reported to the mods.
Edits: 07/24/15
"Not my usual policy, but I can't resist any longer. You insult me, call me a liar, have heard my system without me knowing you were in my house, know everything about audio. You seem to be a real snob and a class A jerk.
"
Says the man calling me a snob and jerk for no apparent reason. Where did I insult you? Where did I call you a liar? When did I claim to hear your system or even make a direct comment about it other than to be doubtful your chip amp sounds sweet like a tube amp?? You are the jerk with your pseudo environmentalist BS about power consumption and consumerism...a man with not one, not two but THREE systems!! Do you leave them on all the time?? Bet you do because you think they consume so little, right? I turn mine on 30 minutes before I listen and off immediately after but I am a power hog while you are Mr. Saint Three Systems!
"My amps are not anything like Class D"
I know that is why I also mentioned chip amps...get it? I heard one of the first chip amps ever (47 labs) when the German importer first started to carry it. Is it using the same National Semiconductor chip as yours?? Probably similar. I heard it with the maxed out power supply tubes...not bad at all...didn't sound even remotely like a good tube amp though.
"these project the same natural tonality, inner detail, and spatiality "
I am sure you think they do...
"You recently bemoaned the dearth of innovation in SS circuitry. Here is an innovation of which you know absolutely nothing and you have never heard"
A) A chip amp is not novel anymore...try 15 years ago...
B) As stated above I heard the one that kicked off the whole gain clone trend. Heard a few of the later ones as well. Better sounding than Class D for sure but not a good tube amp, not buying it.
You dismiss my perception: can't possibly be that way. That's calling me a liar, and makes it seem as though you have heard my amp. How else could you make such judgments?
Oh yeah, you heard a simple chip amp years ago. 47 Labs was a rip off. They charged like $1500 or something for less than a couple hundred bucks of parts, including enclosures. Thus was born the gainclone movement, but there has been some improvement and innovation.
This amp uses the same Nat Semi LM3886, but goes quite a bit beyond that with another opamp nested in the feedback loop forming a current pump. Carefully selected, super-premium passive parts are used throughout. You've never heard it, and it sounds nothing like a simple chip amp. It sounds better than most SS amps and some of the tube amps I have heard. Who is in a better position to make a comparison? Do you understand why I'm insulted by your dismissal? This amp is not the ultimate, and it's not overwhelmingly powerful, but it might be an alternative to modest but power-hogging Class A and tubes. I would like people to at least open their minds to the fact that there might be something better. So far, the posters here cannot accept the possibility, and that's a shame. Without any experience, you already know it can't happen. It's just not heavy or hot enough to be a REAL amplifier.
I don't leave any system on except the main one. The main system consumes a few watts if not playing anything, and, even when it does, it's very efficient. You could hold the heatsinks in the palm of your hand, and they barely get warm. At idle, it probably consumes about as much power as an alarm clock.
The other two systems are very modest, all driven by the main system sources. Workshop system consists of a salvaged Nakamichi receiver that had a busted preamp PCB. It has been gutted except for the PS/power amp stage (discrete components, gets a bit warm at idle), now hooked up to a passive volume control, driving unique 2-way speakers I built myself using Peerless drivers. In the kitchen I have a tiny class T amp with SEAS coaxial speakers in homemade enclosures. I probably spent less money (but far more time and effort) on all three systems combined than some have spent on a single fancy tube amp, and altogether they probably consume much less power. Your insults are misdirected.
Tom E
"You dismiss my perception: can't possibly be that way. That's calling me a liar,"
No, that is implying you are deaf...not a liar. Big difference.
With the rather large external power supplies the 47 labs was a not so simple chip amp. It sounded fine for a basic sound.
"Do you understand why I'm insulted by your dismissal? This amp is not the ultimate, and it's not overwhelmingly powerful, but it might be an alternative to modest but power-hogging Class A and tubes"
Umm, you have a skin the thickness of rice paper maybe? We are talking about amps, man...I didn't call you or your family a name or something. I know it's not the ultimate, or powerful. I take exception with your contention that it is a viable alternative to serious "power hogging" designs.
I know more than a few tooby guys using chip amps now on their Horns , tri-amping them and not missing toobs, I know , deaf huh ... :)
Edits: 07/26/15
I know , deaf huh ... :)
You said it...
Triamping with tubes can get too hot for even a tube guy. I had a friend triamping his Apogee Grands (only used the built-in Krells for the subs) with 3 x NAT monoblocks per channel. The heat in his room was staggering...but damn did it sound good.
That's because they're unbiased...
Sorry, couldn't resist.
R.
They were designed by a knowledgeable man who had zero commercial interest99% of the active circuitry of the amp was designed by Texas Instruments and found in two ICs. Adding a power supply, a handful of support resistors, caps, connectors and cabinet doesn't constitute very much.
I can assure you that TI most definitely has *commercial interest*. :)
Edits: 07/23/15
Reductio ad absurdum, in fact. I'm well aware he didn't design the chips. Actually, the chips were designed by National Semiconductor, not TI, and they're superb. Nothing wrong with chips, unless you're stuck in the past. It's all about implementation, layout, and passive component values and quality. You can't shake a box full of IC's and get a decent amp, much less a superlative one. I spent a couple years experimenting with that handful of caps and resistors to get the best combination: copper foil/PP film caps, naked Vishay's, no magnetic parts, etc.
I have to concur that i have heard good implementation of chip amps , well better than most would think , best with speakers of hi sensitivity and efficiency , the sound belies their low cost and size.
Regards
Your use of the word "designer" stretches reality.
He implemented the amplifier. :)
Did your amp's designer design the tubes? I specifically used the word implementation.
That's all you took away from that last post? I'm done.
Sorry, I was responding to this comment: They were designed by a knowledgeable man who had zero commercial interest
Did your amp's designer design the tubes?
There is a vast difference between someone who designs an amp using their choice of active devices, passive support circuitry AND topology via either individual semiconductors and/or tubes vs. one who has ZERO control over a canned highly complicated integrated circuit.
I'm not so sure the chip is in the amp ....... :)
Madisonears, So Static is less like Trump more like Obama ..?" I begrudge no one their enjoyment of life. Well, maybe people like Trump."
- Madisonears
Edits: 07/22/15 07/22/15
I have no idea what you mean. I won't be dragged into a silly political argument, and this is certainly not the place for it. I am sorry I used Trump as a reference, but he is universally recognized and really does set a standard for being ostentatious.
Peace,
Tom E
Agree ,yes he can be just that and he is not alone in our society today and please, you brought it up, and since One pays his own way and the other has a life history of feeding off the proles , not sure why you would want to target one for waste and not the other ..
..
Regards
Edits: 07/22/15
Yeah, poor Saint Donald has risen from humble beginnings and selflessly dedicated his life to making the world a better place for others, but Obama has selfishly given nothing of his time or energy while amassing a huge fortune drawing from the public trough, risking nothing and leaving our country a mess so much worse than it was before his time in office.
Have a good night thinking about that.
Madisonears ,Is this the kind of stuff you dream up when hiding from 96 deg heat in the basement, surely with all that cash you saved using chip amps you could get yourself two wind generators , one will do the ac system ( lower temps will cut down the hallucinations) the other will charge the batteries and power the rest of the house , with a few solar panels , you are good.
Cool in the summer , warm in the winter , saving the planet and Hey , even get yourself a ESL , you could invite static over for a listen and or a round of golf , live a little ...
Cheers ...
Edits: 07/23/15
Had to laugh. Yeah, maybe I'm crazy from hiding in the cellar, reading too many books.
One recent selection: "Guantanamo and the Abuse of Presidential Power." A little outdated already, but still relevant and shockingly revealing of the crap going on in our government eight years ago.
We do generate some of the local utility's power with wind. Not sure, but maybe every US utility does so now. Unheard of twenty years ago. We CAN change. Solar is a better fit for residential generation, but utility has now increased monthly service charge so payback is extended considerably. I actually pay more per kwh now that I use less of it.
Yep , I do quite a bit of reading myself, sadly it got worst after 2008 than was promised , hate to think where we are heading with all these conflicts. As to the hi -fi , large pure sinewave power inverters with battery power and solar charger is a better way to go with the hi fi , sonics will be improved over Utility power and with green running to boot, Battery quality is pretty important , get the 130 lb beasties ..
You could even go class-A to heat the basement ... :)
Works well for me ...
Had a few Audire products during the 80's , good stuff ....
I've measured some mid 2000-ish amps. Interesting, or they just lied on the original numbers!!!!
So distortion doesn't seem to be a relevant component of the continued tube/SS debate.
Oh distortion matters a lot...just not the way that most people and especially meter readers think it matters. What matters is what the ear is sensitive to and not necessarily what the scope is sensitive to. It turns out that the weighting of harmonics is very far from linear with regard to audibility...not a surprise and it has been know for nearly 80 years but it is convenient to ignore when you have another agenda.
Hear Hear
If only you could...
Nt
try it! you know you want to!
don't share his experience nor his system weaknesses.
I've never been "frustrated" by any gear I've owned. Have you?
someone has to be the Switching Apologist. :)
Nt
try it! you know you want to!
we love all your humorous, defensive posts!
You're the only one who finds the need to step into every post about switching amps. :)
Nt
try it! you know you want to!
that make no mention of class D at all like this one.
I just observed your expected knee jerk response. :)
what followed my post and simple jerks. Clearly I don't have to explain the latter.
try it! you know you want to!
We eagerly await your next contribution. :)
Agree
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
about class d (wouldn't touch it with a barge pole), feedback, ss, etc.I have consistently stated that there is no superior or best amp or amp topology, that an amp is part of a system, and that ultimately it comes down to personal preferences.
If you take umbrage with my statement that tubes suck, which you should, then I would hope to see you express similar sentiments to those who make negative generalizations about class d, feedback, ss, etc. To date, I don't recall reading any such comments from you...how odd, given your apparent displeasure at negative generalizations...perhaps it was the target that upset you, not the fact it was yet another (false) generalization?
try it! you know you want to!
Edits: 07/18/15
You pinned it.
According to Stereophile measurements, the W% output impedance at 20 Hz is 0.015 ohms which even into 4 ohms translates as a damping factor of 0ver 250. I doubt damping factor is a a 'factor' at all which would make the bass even leaner anyway. Hopefully the woofers just need breakin.
Perhaps the damping factor is not the issue, but then I don't know what is. Can you guess? The speakers are broken in, at least enough to tell. They sound fine in the bass with a number of other amps, just not the Sim W-5. With that amp they have little below about 60-80 Hz. This peculiarity of the amp (inability to drive heavily damped woofers) was written about in the Stereophile review of it 16 years ago. Otherwise it is a great amp.
... And you are asking for a recommendation?
What is wrong with the number of amps which sound fine?
What are these amps and why don't you use one of the ones you already know sound fine?
Good luck in your quest.
Smile
Sox
Well, I said fine in the BASS. But perhaps not fine in the highs and mids, or over my budget.
... Perhaps if you named the amps it will give folks a better understanding of what you are asking and expecting to hear from other amps.
Giving a budget is also a pretty basic requirement.
Good luck finding whatever it is you are looking for.
Smile
Sox
How long have you have the upgrade? Does the mfg/upgrader have a recommended break in period?
then tubes will give you that "fat" bottom end your seek!
Been there. Tubes are always praised for their midrange magic. but in my book it's the upper bass and bass that gets me every time.
charles
And depending on the tube amp, it doesn't have to sound 'bloated fat' but sometimes just a little bit of meat in the lower freqs really make a big difference in overall enjoyment. I call it 'robust and full-bodied', which to me is the opposite of lean, clean, sterile, and dry.
A high damping factor probably won't help here. I've owned amps with very high damping factor in both Class AB and Class D but that doesn't guarantee they get the bass 'right'. Tight maybe, but not 'right' for my taste. Bryston comes to mind in my experience. My 7BSST2 monoblocks were powerful and tight but otherwise the polar opposite of 'robust and full-bodied' per my description above.
Opus 33 1/3
.
I heard a Rogue Cronus integrated on some small floor standing Spendors with a VPI Traveler and Ortofon 2M Blue sound pretty darned nice at Brooks Berdan's this weekend.Nice enough that I'd investigate Rogue further if I was in the market.
See ya. Dave
Edits: 07/28/15
FET Valve amplifier. Can change the tone through the use of various 12at7 Tubes. Bulletproof with great service and sound. Have fun!
http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=108&Itemid=210
That is a variable that needs to be considered before changing out electronics. The single biggest sonic impact of speakers is their interaction with the acoustic environment that they are placed in. Eliminate that first.
No. They're in the same place.
Mel-
tubes or solid-state, whichever way you decide to go, home audition any amp prior to purchase.
Absolutely essential that you audition any amplifier with your speakers before purchase unless the amp can be returned for a refund. I would not touch with a barge pole any antique tube amp, Class D amp. or one with JFET input, but thats just me .
You mentioned tubes, wrong choice for driving woofers, you need high current solid state. Unless willing to buy used the A21 is more likely to be your best bang for buck.
The damping factor of the amplifier should not be of any concern. The damping factor is defined as the load impedance divided by the output impedance of the amplifier. For standardization the industry sets the speaker impedance at 8 ohms. Now assume your amplifier has an output impedance of zero (DF = infinity) but you have a DCR of 0.3 ohms from the LP filter and your cables have another 0.1 ohms of resistance and finally speaker impedance is 6 ohms then now your effective DF is 6/(0 + 0.3 + .1) or 20 despite the amplifier having a rating of infinity.
FWIW your Simaudio amp has a calculated DF of 533.
Edits: 07/16/15
Thanks for the info, even if a bit over my head.
Can you speculate as to why the Sim W-5, despite being a bass beast with almost all speakers (including mine before the upgrade) cannot successfully drive a heavily damped woofer system? Kal Rubinson made this same point in his review of the amp 16 years ago.
Mel
Your boxes are overstuffed.
Neolith is absolutely correct, the contributions of the crossover network and speaker cable are more significant than the output impedance of the amplifier.
Did the factory do this upgrade?
My monitor Audio RX2's seems to be dull in the bottom end.
I opened it up and removed the entire back 2-3" panels on the rear and a little on the bottom. Holy COW!!!!! what was the company thinking over stuffing that box like that?
Yes, it's a factory upgrade.
As I wrote they are not TOO overstuffed. They do very well with other amps. They are very quick with virtually no overhang.
Reviewing the Sim amp many years ago, Kal Rubinson noted that it was "powerfully extended" with most speakers, but "not quite as suitable a mate for speakers with highly damped low-end responses, whether sealed boxes or transmission lines: The Moon W-5 starved the PMC IB-1S Monitor's bass to the point of anorexia."
That's exactly what I experienced, and why I need a new amp.
The amp is great. The speaker is great. It's just that they don't mate well.
Your speakers are now well damped enough that they do not require a high damping factor from the amplifier. I have experienced the same thing with other "critically" damped speakers and horn loaded bass drivers. You need an amp with LESS damping factor, not more. You are compounding the damping (mechanical) with damping (electrical). That is why it sounds dead. What is the sensitivity and impedance of the speaker? A good push/pull triode amp would probably liven them up significantly.
Cary SLI-80 or Roque Cronus amps come to mind...
Possibly a Symphonic Line RG-1 MK2/3,the Pass x series or Red Dragon m1000s.I did not look to see if you were balanced or single-ended as far as pre/li estage goes.The first two will offer more warmth.The RDs are very linear(ie:flat freq).Depending on your room,system flavorings and personal preference.
Do you have a price-point you are trying to hit??
Possibly one of the PBN stereo units.
Tom:cat
Sorry, I'm a Maggie guy so I don't get into transmission lines and cabinet damping. I can only speculate that perhaps you got too much of a good thing and your speakers are overdamped. In theory your amp should have plenty of juice for the von Schweikerts which are supersensitive compared to the Magnepan line.
Well, they cannot be too overdamped, for when I substituted a VERY old Dynaco SS amp, the bass returned. And I hear they are great with the Parasound.
You should probably try the Parasound A21. I think it is an outstanding amplifier and it drives my 3-ohm Thiel CS3.7's perfectly. It would be great if you could audition one. I have a friend with Von Schweikert speakers and they have very good bass in his system. I can't remember the amplifier he's using, though.
See if you can audition a Parasound A21. It works very well for me.
Thanks John. I will audition the Parasound.
I had great bass before the upgrade. The speaker was specked to 25 Hz.(-2db) and it was believable for this relatively small speaker. The new one is supposed to be much better still. It uses very expensive Scandinavian aluminum cone woofers.
Mel
Both Parasound and Bryston would be good, along with them look at Krell. A beast of an amp for reasonable is the ATI, I'd recommend at least a 3000 series, these amps have two power cords and require a 20 amp outlet. You might also consider a used Pass X250 or better, but seems a waster just for bass, LOL. Coda would also drive your speakers.
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