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Space constraints mandate that my main music listening system accommodate my preferred analog sources (turntable, FM tuner, cassette deck) and music-only digital sources (CD player, computer audio) in the same spot as the following: DVD player, TV sound, Laser Disc player, and VHS deck.
It seems essential to have a center speaker to make movie and TV dialog comprehensible. My venerable Thiel CS3 front speakers (without the electronic bass equalizer, crossed over to a JMLabs subwoofer) have been augmented with a Boston Acoustics center channel speaker. (The Thiels image well but a clear, good-sounding center like the BA really improves dialog comprehension, at modest listening levels.)
Recently my old A/V preamplifier went into a death-spiral and a bout of upgrade-itis overcame my better judgement. I replaced my old Proceed AVP-1 with a newer Lexicon MC-12. I use it, as before, in 2-channel mode with the on-board ADC/DAC to provide the crossover for the subwoofer. Previous experience with well-engineered digital equipment suggested that the up/down/up conversion taking place on the same circuit board creates only the most minor digital artifacts, compared to listening to analog sources directly through my analog preamp.
The Lexicon MC-12 preamplifier's back panel must have over 50 jacks. My system has actually managed to fill around 30! A rough count in the preamp GUI, a tree-branch affair of inputs, individual modes for that input, settings and level adjustments for each mode yields 200 or more possible combinations. Superimposed on that are dozens of overall audio adjustments. Until I played with these for weeks, it was much easier to get cacophony than decent sound in the very few listening modes I wanted to use- for example listening to TV movies or decoding Dolby Digital DVD soundtracks. I am at an uneasy peace with this confusion now and both music and soundtracks sound pretty darn good.
Music through the Lexicon is just "pretty darn good;" it was better through the old Proceed- smoother, warmer, more relaxed. The only possible way to listen to music critically on this beast is in "2 CHANNEL" mode which has everything programmed for absolute flat settings and zero DSP sound-effects. The sound is a little zippy but that is likely due to my current amp/speaker susceptibility to zippiness more than anything. I can listen for hours without fatigue and just get lost in musicville. I miss the Proceed but I need all those zillion jacks. The control features work flawlessly and make life easy. No unplugging and fidgeting to record the soundtrack of a LaserDisc to a cassette (or any other weird thing). The fine build quality, great appearance and outstanding remote control are cool, no doubt!
There remain almost unlimited "enhancements" on-tap and some are even useful. For example, internet streaming seems to sound a bit better using the Lexicon proprietary "Logic7- Music" mode. From the Harman/Lexicon whitepaper on Logic7 it appears it reads all sorts of spatial cues, derives a complex set of artificial signals, and deploys them via the center channel and to alter the image of the L&R speakers. The effect is to soften the image somewhat but it makes it sound "more analog" in that certain digital artifacts are less noticeable. All the enhancements seem mostly to mess with the image, the tonal quality remains pretty darn good across the board.
Follow Ups:
Mr Bear-
those Thiel speakers (my reference) are so damn good, they will reveal
your system's short-coming(s).
Putting a preamp of such high quality in the mix just shines the spotlight of reality on the good and the bad from sources through EMI/RF, cable choices, clean AC and room set-up. Every improvement I have made to my (currently separate) HT and 2-channel systems has revealed other problems whose nastiness had been masked before the change. The old saying "Once you solve your biggest problem " is all too true in high-end audio. You describe the overall sound of your system as "zippy." Before throwing Krell dollars at the problem, I would prioritize sorting that out by trying different cabling, footers, prepare a clean power and EMI abatement plan for each component, look at how your components are supported, fundamental wire dressing and crossing rules, speaker location and support and other cheap of free tweaks before buying different components. I also suggest getting acquainted with the manual offered with the new pre/pro. All those options and hundreds of panels of features certainly contain the best methods for getting the cleanest analog signal path in and out without the need for a separate 2-channel preamp with the bypass features.
Only after attempting to get the system musically on song and then being dissatisfied would I consider changing the components you already have in place. If you are committed to marrying the two systems together, I suggest looking into some speakers that have been designed and marketed to swing both ways. Infinity came out with 3 or 4 value level lines in the late 90's that contain built-in subwoofers and amps that were capable of producing outstanding music. Smaller Genesis Technologies speakers are excellent at integrating HT and 2-channel, and can produce clean and musical bass down to 16hz.
Everything is going to the dogs
I have little to offer in the way of recommendations. It seems you have tackled the majority of issues in a pretty good manner. Doing great HT or great 2ch is not hard to figure out, but doing both in one system is.
I also have the Thiel CS3s along with Thiel in wall center and on wall rears for my HT setup. It's a shame that the "new" Thiel has dropped architectural speakers from their lineup. They were and are still quite good. I also do not use the bass equalizer and that piece makes the speakers. I suspect dropping that from the mix and trying to use a subwoofer is a big reason you are blah about 2ch. I know that is why mine sound uninspiring. I recently had a friend help me lug the speakers along with the equalizer up to my primary listening room and they sounded pretty darn good again, although they can't touch my current 2ch speakers.
Your Lexicon pre is a great choice. If that isn't getting you good 2ch then you may have a speaker placement challenge or need to figure out how to re-insert that bass equalizer for 2ch and bypass the sub.
That is really is a good idea- it hadn't occurred to me to go back to using the Thiel bass equalizer. My room is small enough that I am sure I'd have OK bass without my sub. Everything interacts, so I will try it. I'll just put the Thiel box in line with the L&R inputs on my power amp.
One thing though- this system had great 2.1 stereo with the previous Proceed AVP, all else being constant. The reason I called it a rant is the time it took to understand, tweak, and listen to the thousand conflicting adjustments in the Lexicon. After all that fiddling, it does sound "good" in stereo but I had hoped for "great."
My solution to a setup for both music and HT is a Cary Cinema 12 processor for mch that passes through front LR to a Parasound JC 2 BP preamp. The processor and subs are not used for stereo music, only the JC-2 and a pair of JC 1 amps that drive a pair of KEF Reference 107/2s. The processor connects to a center JC-1 amp, surround A23 amps, and a Velodyne SMS-1 bass manager that controls a pair of HGS-15 subs.
Sources for stereo are a JC 3 phono stage for vinyl and an Ayre C-5xeMP. Source for mch are an Oppo 105 and Sony XA5400ES. The Oppo processes the output of a DirecTV HD-DVR.
db
I have little to offer in the way of recommendations. It seems you have tackled the majority of issues in a pretty good manner. Doing great HT or great 2ch is not hard to figure out, but doing both in one system is.
I also have the Thiel CS3s along with Thiel in wall center and on wall rears for my HT setup. It's a shame that the "new" Thiel has dropped architectural speakers from their lineup. They were and are still quite good. I also do not use the bass equalizer and that piece makes the speakers. I suspect dropping that from the mix and trying to use a subwoofer is a big reason you are blah about 2ch. I know that is why mine sound uninspiring. I recently had a friend help me lug the speakers along with the equalizer up to my primary listening room and they sounded pretty darn good again, although they can't touch my current 2ch speakers.
Your Lexicon pre is a great choice. If that isn't getting you good 2ch then you may have a speaker placement challenge or need to figure out how to re-insert that bass equalizer for 2ch and bypass the sub.
Truth is combining 2 channel and HT is a fool's errand - been there done that. They are just two different animals with completely different sets of priorities IMHO.
.
is that with DD and DTS everything goes through the factory approved chipsets. Thus the sound is colored by what the chip designers' taste. Worse yet those chip sets are used in everything from a soundbar to a $10K processor.
It would be cool to have a separate 2-channel system in my big den (along with the fine leather chairs, fireplace, and miles of bookcases) but that won't quite work in my budget. Short of that it is necessary to have my music and movie systems be dual-purpose. It then becomes a game of evaluating the tradeoffs in my system that benefit music the most but still allow comprehensible, dynamic movie performance. I can't afford to be an absolutist.
I don't quite see the idea that a $10k preamp will sound the same as a BeastBuy soundbar because they have the "same chip." My old Proceed used very early, rudimentary ADC/DAC chipsets but the sound was GREAT. I suppose that the excellent analog circuit design, high quality components, and fine power supply were at the root of that sound.
Compromise #1 is that I have to live with some signal processing. In any case, adding a subwoofer to any system requires that the signal endure some sort of processing. I'm looking for the least offensive processing that will allow me to have a dual-purpose system is all.
Believe it or not, the Rotel RSP 1060 did that (it's in their manual and I confirmed it with a call to Rotel).
On the higher end, the new Krell Foundation does it too and sounds wonderful and is remarkably affordable for what it does.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
Pretty common (although getting less so) on prepros.
Why is this a 'rant'? You seem pleased with the Lexicon setup. As for all those pesky cables, newer Pre/Pros use HDMI eliminating a lot of cable clutter.
I could never get the basic stereo sound I wanted from a Pre/Pro so when I had my HT setup, I had a separate basic linestage with 'theater bypass'. That gave me the best of both worlds. The convenience of a Pre/Pro for HT and a direct path through the dedicated stereo linestage for 2-ch stereo.
I have been so happy with the Krell Foundation's all analog 2 channel preamp setting that I actually took out the HT bypass set-up out of my combo-system and now use the Foundation as my preamp as well as processor. But before hearing the Foundation, and when I was using a Rotel pre/pro, I did the HT bypass approach too and agree it's an artful solution.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
Edits: 07/02/15
I haven't heard the Krell Foundation but I'm sure there are a few standouts that do 2-ch very nicely but I don't believe that is the norm. My pre/pros or receivers always required a dedicated 2-ch linestage to get the 2-ch sound right, but my pre/pros have never been very high-end.
The only prepro that comes close is the Bryston BP3.
OTOH, I prefer to use DiracLive room EQ for all music, stereo or MCH, but, since that is accomplished with files on my server, the output of the DAC goes through an Audio Research MP1. (I no longer have any vinyl.)
I think it does a great job for two channel music when set to "Analog/Preamp". I use that setting for all 2 channel music discs (Oppo 105) and LPs (VPI Scout/PS Audo GCPH). With a CJ MF2250 the Foundation serves as a fantastic all analog preamp in my opinion.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
Not bad at all but I thought the SP3 stands a little apart from the competition, particularly for the pure analog path.
I was also using the processor pass-through of my line-stage (ARC Ref 3) till recently. Now I just unplug my interconnects from the power amp inputs (output of line-stage) and plug in those from the processor (L/R fronts) whenever I switch from 2-channel music to 5-channel movies. I am not sure whether this way I save life of the line-stage tubes or not.
I could never get the basic stereo sound I wanted from a Pre/Pro so when I had my HT setup, I had a separate basic linestage with 'theater bypass'.
I have several HT setups around the house and the only way to get good stereo sound, or even multi-channel sound for that matter, is by using decent amps. The "bypass" is an awesome feature.
I've yet to hear a decent sounding receiver or processor for stereo listening.
Smile
Sox
| I've yet to hear a decent sounding receiver or processor for stereo listening.
I recently demo'ed an Anthem MRX 710 for a few days from my dealer.
Current system: 2-channel from Mac into DSPeaker antimode 2.0 into a DAC (Schiit Bifrost) and then an integrated amp.
I found the Anthem quite good coming from straight 2-channel (and then with a DSPeaker anti-mode)---the Anthem's are known for good audio in particular (google the reviews) which is my focus of course, much more than video.
I'm not using a center. What I found:
a) Anthem's ARC room correction is actually good, in particular integrating a subwoofer with planars. (Magnepan 3.6).
b) Anthem's proprietary listening modes, "Anthem Music" & "Anthem Movie" are good, and molest the sound much less than the Dolby and Neo: modes which were annoying for music. In particular, "Anthem Music" sounds nearly the same as 2-channel stereo, except when you switch to 2ch for real some depth disappears.
c) It has "Dolby Volume" which is an implementation of two separate features (to the best of my understanding): (1) variable fletcher-munson loudness correction based on the amplifier's volume setting {because you calibrated with a mic it knows the absolute spl level} (2) dynamic range compression but the amount can be varied, including zero in particular.
To my pleasure I heard no obvious artifacts from either. I kept (1) on all the time, and used (2) at times for domestic tranquility and netflix.
Since I'll never use 7 channels, I ended up ordering the 310, and will power the main channels through a 2-channel external amp and use the internal amps for surround.
My conclusion: the quality and taste of the DSP designers matters tremendously in this, and I can see how bad versions are worse than nothing, but it's possible to do it well.
I have a Vantas processor/amp avoids the compromise. It is a processor and three channel that only connects to my 2 channel rig via an input into my preamp that drives my mains with the HT L/R signal and sensor leads on my main amps output to track volume of the system. The only problem is the company went belly up and the processor only does HT up to Dolby Digital. It really sounds good for HT. The center and rear channel amps are 100W separate class A/B. The controls are set it and forget it.
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