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so few preamps and integrateds offered these days still do not have phono stages?
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain
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Many companies offer phono stages or two versions of their preamps with and without a phono stage. There are several companies like iFi that offers a sensibly priced MM/MC external phono stage among many others.
Still I did a quick check of $400 and $500 ish integrated amps from Marantz and Yamaha and they still have phono stages included. So two of the biggest mainstream hitters are including Phono stages on their entry level gear on up.
Further - Radio Shack (when it was in business) offered a surprisingly respectable $49 Phono Stage referred to as "The Little Rat" that took a 9V battery. I still have one of these things and it did well enough versus several $500 ones back in the day that it got a bit of love on some audio forums. Surely there must be something out there today that would cost the same and be even better.
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reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
No question! So why so few offered?
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain
the "vinyl resurgence" is but a blip on the radar. So there was a 4M increase in unit sales from 2013 to 2014, but still represents only 4% of the market according to RIAA stats . The heydays of vinyl are long gone.
Don't get me wrong - I'm an old boomer with turntables in two systems and bought a new ARC SP20 (with phono) last summer. One box phono capable preamps can still be found if you look in the right places.
It is being driven by 20-somethings who are jumping on the latest "cool thing" bandwagon. Younger folks are notoriously fickle, once their interest dies or it is no longer fashionable or they settle down and raise families and have to make the usual sacrifices that implies, the vinyl revival will dry up.
Give it 2, maybe 3 years and they'll be right back to their 99 cent MP3 downloads. For those who are not really dedicated to this hobby, convenience trumps sound quality every time...
-RW-
-that was the year of least production. Its been on the rise ever since.
Now days its the CD that is really at risk. If you release a title on CD, in a few minutes its posted somewhere on the web.
If you sell an LP, it takes a bit longer, and since its a lot harder to do, happens less often, especially if you include an MP3 download with it.
So the labels see it as something they can sell. This really does not have that much to do with 20-somethings.
But somebody has to buy it right? Who's buying vinyl?
You can buy LPs at Target and Barnes and Nobles now. If you think its only 20-somethings that are fueling that think again. Those companies stock stuff they think they can sell.
Audiophiles buy LPs too, so do old people (like me) that still have their record players. I recently found a copy of Loreena McKennet's LP of her live show in Spain (originally only on DVD), recorded in a castle. Got it at Barnes and Nobles...
The only reason LP production went down in the late 80s and early 90s was because the record labels wanted to phase them out. It was not because the market wasn't there.
Yes you are right about why vinyl went away in the first place. But I think demand (not suppliers) revived it. As to the demographic makeup of the current demand, I don't know how it breaks down.
Well its always been the kids that drive the market. Its been that way since the 1960s at least.
...I'll be ready to offer to take that old trend off their hands (maybe for pennies on the dollar). Who knows!
Dman
Analog Junkie
There's always a vinyl revival.
Good grief, it used to be "common knowledge" that only geezers were leading the vinyl charge.
Vinyl isn't going away.
Just long enough for the hipsters to ruin a million records with their Crosleys.
It's the declining use of vinyl - IN GENERAL. Why spend money putting in a crappy phono amp in when you can either just save the money, or put it towards a better line stage.
But there are good preamps with phono and without phono stages. Your choice. Unlike in the 90's when companies couldn't wait to get that vinyl money off their engineering backs. Phono stages were going the way of the Cuckoo bird. And companies just wanted to move onto CDs and forget vinyl ever happened.
Of course, they were wrong but that's another story. MY OP was prompted by a rave review of a new Jadis Integrated. At $15,000 a pop you'd think more would at least offer a phone pre as an option.
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain
There are very good technical reasons that a tube integrated amplifier shouldn't have a phono stage.
Tube phono stages benefit from clean, regulated DC heater power. This is not a reasonable implementation for all the heaters in an integrated (too much current). So, to add that bit to an integrated, you have to add a dedicated winding to the power transformer just for the heaters.
The next thing you'd want for a good tube phono stage is very well filtered, if not regulated B+. You don't really need much voltage, maybe 250-350V is plenty, but your tube integrated has B+ rails at 450-550V (and they aren't well filtered, because your integrated is push-pull class AB). So you get to shed a ton of that voltage and add a lot of parts to get the noise down, or you take the same steps as the first problem, and add another winding to the transformer.
You've added 2 windings to the PT, but there probably isn't enough room on the bobbin for 2 more windings, so you really need another PT. Since low level phono signals are pretty delicate, you should design the power transformer to run at a lower flux density, just to be safe. So now you need to toss the old transformer for the integrated and wind a new one, probably on a larger core.
After all that, you need special shielding inside the integrated, so you may need to add an enclosure around the phono preamp to shield it from what's going on in the power amp.
It's these kinds of issues in the design process that prevent many tube integrated amplifiers from having phono preamps.
In a solid state amp, the voltages are already lower, and a lot of the phono preamps will just be a couple opamps and a few other parts, so they can pop in on a card and not face the same challenges.
It removes the mystery, to at least me anyway, of the phono stage.
It always seemed like the phono stage in tube amps was quite complex and widely variable between preamps.
I had no idea the SS versions were just that simple.
thanks
charles
Why would Jadis include a phono stage in their $15,000 integrated when they can sell you this? (Take note, Kentaja and other apologists. Or are you going to tell us that for the price of a new Hyundai they couldn't build a decent phono stage into the thing?)
The auto industry analogy is simple minded. How many vehicles does Hyundai built per year? A couple million? How many of this particular integrated will Jadis sell per year? If they are lucky maybe 100?
Trying to draw a comparison between high end audio and the auto industry is silly but all too common I am afraid. Those that wish to engage in such analogies demonstrate a lack of understanding about such things as cost-of-scale, what it actually takes to keep a viable business going, etc.
The beautiful thing about the internet is everyone is entitled to an opinion even when the opinion is based on nothing more than fantasy.
So you called me simple minded. And you throw around words like "silly" and "fantasy?"
The only one who is simple minded here is the one who has lost all rational perspective in the real world. Take the cover off the Jadis preamp and tell me with a straight face that this little metal box full of 60 year old technology is worth $15,000! Indeed, there aren't many more "silly" products based more on "fantasy" on this world than a $15,000 entry level preamplifier. With a $6900 add-on phono stage required, to boot!
Yes it is expensive to do it right. However there is a "bull squirt" point.
Understand, there is a lot of expense with R&D, parts, labor, advertising etc... to produce a good preamp But there is also a point where you're advertising is directed towards the Rubes.
charles
Those prices are absurd. 22 large to get a pre and phono stage is a bit much to swallow...
-RW-
Hi, kavakid,
I'm glad that manufacturers aren't jumping on the bandwagon and adding phono stages. They just take up valuable space and circuitry and limit the number of line input connections. I've seen a few integrated amps that had a phono stage/line connection with a switch to choose either one. That seems like a reasonable compromise. As others have mentioned, phono preamps can be had for very little money. Let the owner decide which phono stage they want to use.Same for built-in DACS, I'd rather leave them out of integrated amps and preamps. Just adds cost to the unit and like phono stages, I want to choose which DAC I want to use.
Regards,
Tom
Edits: 04/11/15
I agree with you on leaving the DACs out of the preamp as well.
I guess I'm from the old school. Just seen too many TVs with built in VHS players hit the dump.
Keep your "changeable" technology separate.
Since many of these are just serviceable, nothing better. Now the one in my Advent 300 receiver and one in the Apt-Holman preamp are a different breed and well worth losing a line level input.
If manufacturers included quality phono sections, I'm all for it.
Opus 33 1/3
I could go for a decent quality phono stage in an integrated amp or preamp if I had limited shelving for stereo components. Otherwise it's just an added cost for something I may never use. If I was just starting out and lived in small apartments and moved a lot, the convenience of having as many components built into an integrated would be handy.Regards,
Tom
Edits: 04/14/15
It's been my observation phono stages are showing up in more affordable pieces. Who cares, unless you're of the moving magnet persuasion.
They don't include inboard phono stages because they found a more profitable way.
They realize the majority of vinyl fans that are driving this resurgence are niche buyers who will gladly purchase a separate phono preamp. There's plenty of money to be made selling little black boxes for upwards of $1000.00.
Nonsense.
There was a day when all preamps had a phono stage. Then the CD came along. Kind of killed the need for a phono stage. This started to happen about 30 years ago. Why would companies keep building preamps with built in phono stages when there is no need or demand?
Now the trend is back to vinyl. The vast majority of people are digital only, even audiophiles. But there is a new demand for preamps with an integrated phono stage. For those that wish one box it is a great thing. Makers of preamps are responding to the demand. ARC as an example has two preamps with integrated phono stage. And lots of line stage and phono stage only products. The best of both worlds. There are many others doing the same thing.
Personally I spin vinyl and would much rather have a dedicated phono stage. Gives me far more options and flexibility.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with companies making decisions based on market demand and the bottom line. This is how the system is meant to work. It keeps consumers happy and companies in business. If some think there is some hidden motive in this reality so be it.
Well now, ARC is the exception to the rule and is a bastion of tradition if nothing else. And there are certain budget preamps from companies like Parasound that offer a built-in phono stage. But if you think the fact that almost no $5k to $10k preamps have a phono stage is due to something other than the fact those same companies market expensive standalone phono preamps, then naive is the word that comes to mind.
Naive? Just someone that understands how markets/companies work and has no conspiracy theory agenda.
I never said it was wrong. It's just business.
Best answer yet and what I suspected
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain
... as if a preamp has no phonostage then one simply adds an outboard one. They start pretty cheap. It's not as if the vinyl resurgmence depends upon preamps with built in RIAA eq. Mfgs won't necessarily want to put the EQ in the premap or integrated amp if they can sell that extra box.Having said this, research (in the UK) appears to show that a lot of kids buying vinyl do not play it but are buying LPs for their covers and general fashionability. They actually listen to downloads of the same materal. If that is duplicated in other markets then the "vinyl revival" will be alive only until kids move on to something else.
Edits: 04/10/15 04/10/15
You are of course asking why the vinyl revival is not causing more amplifier manufacturers to include phono stages. My inital intepretation was the converse i.e if there are few amps with phono stages why is there a vinyl revival?
Vinyl has never, completely, gone away. We will be saying the same thing about CD.
Has vinyl not gone away the product introduced to kill it , the CD , is now dead ... Yep
:)
Not sure about that, the cd offers zero at this point other than the fact you can buy them cheap.
Are you sure it is zero? How about a physical medium that is transportable and practical, instead of a digital file that can easily be mistakenly lost or deleted? There is a reason that million- and billion-dollar industries still back up their systems and data to physical media on a daily basis. It's not cheap but they do it for a reason.
Edits: 04/11/15
I remain very close to zero on this. All of your points are better arguments against the CD than for it, IMO. Transportable? I can carry hundreds of CDs on a thumb drive. I can much more easily lose a CD than a digital file- as long as my system for storing my files is decent. And if it isn't, that is my fault.
Big businesses are not backing up on physical media, and they haven't been for a while. In fact, they are quickly moving away from housing any data at their sites at all. Backing up to tape drives, DVD, etc on site are all examples of terrible IT practices that are completely antiquated and considered bad practice across the industry.
Who said anything about backing up "on site"? Ever heard of offsite backup storage? I'm fully aware of cloud as it's my business, but I hate to break the news to you that there are still big businesses that do offsite tape backups.
And transportable can mean different things than you carrying a thumb drive around in your pocket protector or fanny pack. The transportable I was referring to is the fact you can easily transfer ownership or possession of said media from one person to another. I don't observe my girlfriend sharing her downloaded books or music that are sitting on her iPad with anybody, but she sure passes around the physical media books and music within our circle to share. That ain't zero, Mr. absolute. There's a real value there.
that requires it's own stage with equalization etc.
FWIW - as the owner of some 5'000 LPs I pretty well aware that it hasn't gone away.
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain
In fact, they also include a DAC, all-in-one.
Couldn't be any easier.
Just examine an AudioAdvisor.com online catalog.
I see pre-amps and integrateds having it all and I think that is fantastic for someone with not much shelf space, patience, or extra money to spend on interconnects.
just not many
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain
I suspect more listeners don't do vinyl than do in spite of the fact it is on the up spring. So most preamps don't include a phono as it's a minority interest. And there are tons of add on phono stages at all different prices. And I'm an old audiophile from when the phono stage was the most important part of the preamp since vinyl was by far the prime source. And now I use an external phono stage.
built in phono preamps built in and/or USB outputs like this one:
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