|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
206.255.209.123
In Reply to: RE: Curious posted by stehno on March 23, 2015 at 19:44:44
To achieve performance gains not unlike that gorgeoous Porsche 918, one must look beyond the status quo.
So, how costly are performance gains? Let's compare the 918 with a Boxster S, which runs about eight percent the cost of the 918.
Time to 60 mph? 2.4 seconds vs. 4.2
Lateral cornering? 1.12 G vs 1.01 G
So, it is perfectly fine to spend another $850,000 for saving fewer than two seconds and providing a slim 0.1 G added grip? Both offer Porsche's fine tuning and offer mid-engine handling dynamics.
And you consider the Xs series a "status quo" design? Really?
Follow Ups:
If you are attempting to compare "high-end" audio performance in any way shape or form with performance-oriented exotic automobiles or auto racing,.... Well, let me just say you are way off the mark.
That's like comparing the performance of hares, cheetah's, leopards, gazelles, and other fast animals with the performance of turtles.
Empty response. No content. No substance. Cannot answer the simple question.
Thanks anyway!
Surely you're not comparing "high-end" audio performance-to-dollars-spent to that of automobile racing whether it be Formula 1 racing or Top Fuel Dragsters as the pinnacle of that industry.
That would be laughable.
is apparently beyond your grasp.
... I can't imagine anybody knowing the first thing about live music and the serious limitations of reproduced music even with today's SOTA-level systems willing to compare the non-performance-oriented "high-end" audio industry to a real performance-oriented industry that includes exotic sports cars, F1, and top-fuel dragsters all of which wreak of real performance.To answer your other questions between the differences of a Porsche 918 and a Boxter that have absolutely no corelation to "high-end" audio:
1. 0 - 60 at 2.4 seconds vs 4.2 seconds is a HUGE difference.
2. The 1.12 vs 1.01 lateral acceleration is also not a small difference.But what you neglect to mention is that:
1. Both Porches are still quite the performer and far exceeding the typical Cadillac or Buick and will run metaphorics circles around most domestic cars.
2. Even though to the naive (perhaps like yourself), these two stats may seem like the 2 Porsches are more alike than different. When nothing could be further from the truth. I know very little about either Porsche but I suspect one is designed entirely different from the other from the ground up. I'll bet dollars to donuts their braking systems, transmissions, engines, even the gear shifting mechanisms are entirely different.
And though you are only focused on 2 stats, I'd suspect that their driving behaviors are also entirely different, e.g. going into and coming out of corners, acceleration, deceleration, braking, power shifting, etc. are all most likely vastly different one from another. Also including operating temperaturs, brake cooling features, engine cooling, oil cooling, top speeds, etc. etc.
And we haven't even gotten into the potentially vastly different design styles and various aesthetics.
E-Stat, considering your apparent inability to discern a potential gulf of differences between a 918 and a Boxter, you're starting to sound like you could be a prime candidate for being a "high-end" audiophile.
Edits: 03/25/15 03/25/15
in possession of even more speculation - and continued inability to answer my simple question.
Hey, Beavis, is this the question you think I was avoiding?
"What do you find it costs for the highest level of audio performance at that power level?"
It was kind of a naive question so I didn't pay it much attention. Naive as was your comparision of auto racing performance to "high-end" audio performance. Or naive as was your comparing the 918 to the Boxter.
The answer to your question pertaining to say a state-of-the-art racing machine is about $12,000 excluding the primary components e.g. source, amps, speakers. Last year I sold my $25k retail source, int. amp, and speakers and replaced them with $10k retail source, amps, and speakers.
So if you add $12k + $10k, the answer to your question is roughly $22k and at that price I'm unaware of any system that comes remotely close to its performance. This is based primarily on the $12k worth of technologies I employ that address universal distortions that others can't even begin to address.
For you that's not speculation and for T-Bone that is knowledge.
The answer to your question pertaining to say a state-of-the-art racing machine is about $12,000 excluding the primary components e.g. source, amps, speakers.
Actually, the question was simply about 300 watt amps.
So if you add $12k + $10k, the answer to your question is roughly $22k and at that price I'm unaware of any system that comes remotely close to its performance
If you recall, my question was about the cost of the highest performance level amplifiers available without any "at this price" qualifiers.
Again, you're question is pointless because as things stand I'm unaware of any amp under its own power (without outside influence) that can come remotely close to the theoretical Porsche 918 you put up as a benchmark for audio amp performance.
But to indulge you, most amps' performance would equate to a Buick or Chevrolet and the more extreme amps' performance might equate to maybe a Mini-Cooper or perhaps a 15-year old BMW M3 w/o the competition package and with 175k miles under its belt.
That's because without superior outside influences, any amp (or any component for that matter) is incomplete since certain universal distortions, when left unaddressed instill a serious performance-limiting governor on every last component.
But with superior outside influences, this level of performance can be accomplished for $2400 and quite possibly less than that.
But with superior outside influences, this level of performance can be accomplished for $2400 and quite possibly less than that.
It only took - what six posts? - to answer this simple question. We have very different points of reference if you find that a $2400 power amp provides the highest level of audio performance available today.
I would completely agree that your target cannot "come remotely close to the theoretical Porsche 918 you put up as a benchmark for audio amp performance" as you stated.
Yup, $2400 and that's completely stock aside from fuse replacements. And it could probably be done using a significantly cheaper amp than that.
But just so you don't go away with silly thoughts running through your head, it's what's done to shore up the components externally by addressing universal distortions that you obviously know nothing about.
Just a shame you haven't the foggiest what you speaketh. Whether it be between a Boxter and a 918 or between the gulf of performance differences between high-end automobiles or live music (the absolute sound) vs high-end audio.
Regrettably, you're far from alone.
unsubstantiated and completely wrong assumptions found here. Do you feel better?
Thanks for the immature rant. It put a smile on my face. :)
... and your nonsensical question.
The Bored have discussed your status on AA more than one, given complaints from various inmates. After several discussions, the consensus is that either you register as an (M) or you'll need to leave.
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/john-stehno/9/0/8a4
http://www.stereophile.com/content/dynamic-contrasts
http://www.dynamic-contrasts.com/
Your website does in fact state "We accept VISA, Mastercard, Paypal, money orders, personal and cashier's checks." It further states "60% down is required when placing an order with balance due prior to shipping."
You have stated on the AA pages that you has every intention of keeping your website up for as long as you live, what with well-deserved pride in your accomplishments. We don't have an issue with what you do with your site, and believe you when you say you haven't sold a thing in years. Still, your site and your LinkedIn profile indicate Dynamic Contrasts is a going concern; that is a violation of our terms of service.
Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum, et cetera, et cetera...
Memo bis punitor delicatum! It's all there, black and white,
clear as crystal! Blah, blah, and so on and so forth ...
Done. My login should now show M.
I suppose it's not so easy to retire or close one's doors.
My former company hasn't been registered as an LLC for several years now.
My website grows outdated a bit more each day as I've not had a merchant account (to accept credit cards for several years now.
The Stereophile webpage should be from 2011 audio show and is outside my control.
Thanks,
> > Done. My login should now show M.
Thank you.
Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum, et cetera, et cetera...
Memo bis punitor delicatum! It's all there, black and white,
clear as crystal! Blah, blah, and so on and so forth ...
You succeeded and provided your point of view.That's all I asked!
edit: BTW, are you no longer affiliated with the rack company? I trust you understand the AA guidelines for manufacturers here.
Edits: 04/01/15
No.
But my login now has an M by it for manufacturer. So now I'm deceiving others with the M just to appease the really moral types.
It seems we truly are in the last days.
Yeah, that whole honesty thing is overrated.
that would require actual knowledge.
T-Bone, let's get back to your decades of well-documented vinyl experience that must have been so revolutionary.
I mean why else would you have your experiences so well documented? Surely you must know what you're talking about otherwise it would have all been just be a colossal waste of your these past few decades, right?
follows you around like stink ...
link below ...
If you enjoy playing music in your tiny little sandbox, well, there's certainly nothing wrong with that.
I just want to make sure you understand that when it comes down to it, there ain't nuthin musical about it.
And if you say otherwise, (which you will), you give clear indication you understand nothing between the huge gulf that separates live music from even a SOTA-level playback system.
Now if we substitute your rinky-dink system for the SOTA-level pb system, well, then we'd have to immediately advance to your well-documented vinyl experiences where I'm sure you sound like a real paper tiger.
C'mon, TBone, Be intellectually honest with yourself. Your last 20 years and if history proves anything, I have to assume your next 20 years of "high-end" audio experiences was and will be a complete waste of your time and money. Unless you intend to open your little mind and realize that not only have you not arrived, but you've yet to kick your kickstand up and start peddling your training bike.
to be > > intellectually honest < < is still just pretending ...
... speaking of pretentious paper tigers, keep on resorting to meaningless system crapping and idiotic personal jabs (which is ALL you've done so far) ... like a spoiled pretentious little child, hands firmly caught in the cookie jar ...
TBone, c'mon buddy,
Just share one of your "well-documented vinyl experiences" and what you've learned from your "decades" of experience that set's your playback system apart from the majority and keeps you from being an also ran.
I've requested this 3 or 4 times now from you but I'm still betting dollars-to-donuts you won't because paper tigers generally can't.
Don't fret over it as you can rest assured you're not alone. Well, except that this thread and the other one kinda' exposed your status a bit.
in english, you have apples to oranges false comparison. the question pushes this to the limits....
a wasted attempt at discussion
roger wang
I am suprised The Bored has not removed the automobile ?
You can't compare the auto world to the audio world. Over in the automobile world most of the manufacturers actually know what they are doing. In audio only a few do.
Very well said.
Incorrect both automobile & high end audio manufacturers try their best to rip-off the Consumer and in many instances they are successful.
That may be more true with the typical every day type of car mfg'ers, e.g. GM, Ford, etc.But when gettig into the exotics that becomes less true even though one may pay top dollar for performance, the performance is still there.
And when it comes to the top-of-the-heap F1 or Top Fuel dragsters, the price is what it is, and the extreme performance levels are definitely there.
Not so with "high-end" audio.
Edits: 03/25/15
I totally agree with you re the rip-off so-called High End Audio. As for exotic automobiles they do not interest me in the slightest, I see them for ego driven playboy racers & posers , many kill themselves , also a danger to the Public.
Edits: 03/26/15
Sure, but that egomaniac behavior exists with potentially any endeavor. Including high-end audio. Perhaps especially high-end audio, since it cannot offer real performance.
But as with that Porsche 918 pictured earlier, I'd have an absolute field day every day I drove it.
Tell me. Would you agree if I said, from a performance perspective the high-end audio industry is still very much in its infancy stage?
Technology always marches on , with regard to your question, I am unable to answer , but I would say current performance I find totally satisfactory, remember Live v Recorded demonstrations were given many years ago. I am only interested in discs and have no interest in PC audio & downloading. You may enjoy your Porsche but it is still very dangerous unlike high end audio which only damages your Bank Balance..
Edits: 03/26/15 03/26/15
Hilarious stuff gents , only utoob comments section beats the asylum, from Pass to Porsche maybe the "hi-end" is really dangerous afterall ..... :)
Edits: 03/27/15
Besides your figures the 918 also offers about 1/3 of the fuel consumption of a Boxster S.
918: 3L/100km (78mpg)
Boxster 9L/100km (29mpg)
The 918 is the product of 30+ years of r&d and chances are Porsche is still losing money on every one sold like VW do on every Bugatti they sell. Not something 'high-end' audio could be accused of.
The closest audio equivalent is probably the Hypex nCore amp. Still less than the standard amp in question which at best is just a minor refinement of 50 year old technology.
EPA rating
It will do 12 miles on the battery.
The 918 is the product of 30+ years of r&d
And the Boxster isn't?
Not of the 30 year+ research by german car companies to produce a 3L/100km car.
Of course they use the same test procedure they use for all cars.
How valid that is in real life scenarios is another story.
A guy I went to school with studied car design (technical not visual) beginning in the mid '80s and even back then that was the first and foremost goal.
In that sense the Boxster is merely a marginal refinement of century old design. It is clearly not a paradigm shift like hybrids or fuel cells are.
you're referring to efficiency - which in today's cheap oil world means very little - versus performance (remember that notion from the original post?) where I see only incremental difference.Don't get me wrong. I'd love to drive a 918, but wifey's modest Boxster can put a smile on your face. :)
Edits: 03/24/15
It's no cheaper then in the mid '80s when the efficiency drive by the german manufacturers began.
Probably part of the german program to source > 80% of all energy consumed from renewables by 2050. It'll also give Germany a technological lead, just like the Apollo program did for the USA in the '60s and has so far added nearly 400 000 permanent and skilled jobs to their economy.
Since in Italy and Germany cars are taxed by engine displacement a high specific output was always a priority.
Either way I'm mostly referring to moving technology forward and neither the Boxster nor the amp in question do that in a way class d amps and hybrid cars do. They both might be fun to use but that's it.
Ok, then perhaps you might start your own thread on that completely different topic!
Since in Italy and Germany cars are taxed by engine displacement a high specific output was always a priority.
Let's leave politics out of the discussion. BTW, do you think the 4.6 liter displacement of the 918's V-8 particularly low? :)
And while switching amps might be "moving technology forward", they certainly aren't moving the listening experience forward. Any more than a Prius moves the driving experience forward. It's more like forced neutering to me.
Post a Followup:
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: