 
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
|
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
75.100.189.227
In Reply to: RE: NAD M22 power amp posted by pictureguy on January 13, 2015 at 10:48:31
nt
try it! you know you want to!
Follow Ups:
.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
...because they can claim differentiation in the marketplace and save face by saying they don't just put a pretty box around some OEM boards. And that's fine, many "brand name" manufacturers do that even if their mod is a fairly minor one.In the case of Rogue Audio and their Medusa / Hydra "hybrid Class D" amps, I think they actually screwed those up. Those amps sound worse to me than plain vanilla generic Hypex UcD.
Who knows, NCore 400 in the NAD might sound nice but it's $3K USD. There are many nice sounding amps in that price class. The only incentive, for me anyway, is if that $3K NAD sounds BETTER than other comparably priced 'traditional' amps. At least it's not priced in the ridiculous nearly $10K range as some other NCore.
I hope it does well but I am skeptical. How many times have we seen these new mid-fi marketing-hyped products take a drastic drop in price on close out in the Audio Advisor catalog (and elsewhere) after a short year or so? I've seen many examples... lets hope this NAD has some staying power.
Edits: 01/16/15 01/16/15
Abe,
Looking at the pics (few) of the M22 Internals the module is NOT ROUND! That alone is a BIG change from the NC400.
Too much is never enough
that NAD did more than take some modules off the shelf and drop them into a pretty box. The worked together with Hypex to develop a module to their needs. They made changes to the clipping circuit, the input, etc. NAD is not some guy in his garage- they sell enough units to get to have their own unique module.
Whether or not the ncore NAD is on par with other amps at its price point is something each must decide for themselves. I have heard good things from several early adopters. The only way to know for certain is to try it in your system and see what YOU think.
I agree, the nc1200 commmercial offerings seem quite steeply priced. But then again, many owners seem thrilled with them so who's to say?
try it! you know you want to!
AbeCollins,
Can you name the 3K amps (New) you consider "good " sounding for reference ....
Regards
I usually buy used but here are a few priced under $3000 new just off the top of my head:
Parasound A21: $2500
Parasound A23: $1000
Odyssey Audio Stratos: $1300 - $1800 w/Various Options
Odyssey Audio Khartago: $1000 - $1300 w/Various Options
Rogue Atlas Magnum: $2000 (tube amp)
Rogue Stereo 100: $3000 - $3500 not sure, but around $3000 realistically
I'm sure that I'm missing several.
They have exactly 2 options.
Better caps….IF they'll fit
Better Resistors. ANY carbon 2b replaced with film and upgraded film.
Neither change would put the amp in the 'good' category if it wasnt' already a fundmentally decent sounding piece of goods.
Power supply is the OTHER category, but that's not an 'amp' upgrade, IMO, though it does effect the final product.You MIGHT be able to come up with some kind of INPUT buffer board for some reason, but I doubt that would change the fundamentals, either.
Internal photo does NOT show the 'round' NC400 module the text says they started with. So this might be, if not a clean-sheet design, certainly one with some erasures. SMPS, too, since no sign of a properly sized toroid. Some small inductors spotted.
Too much is never enough
Edits: 01/13/15
The new module was developed using the nc400 platform but from there it was modified and augmented with input from NAD. There are several differences from the stock nc400: input stage, clipping circuitry, power output is different, etc.
try it! you know you want to!
Yeah, a read the NAD blurb. Lots of blah blah blah without the kind of detail I thrive on.
The biggest difference? This module is NOT ROUND! GASP!
And power from a 'd' amp? Totally up for grabs since I don't think ANY of them can survive an FTC style test with a preconditioning period at some %age of 'rated' power. Full Power is IFFY, too, since the lack of heat sinking will put severe time limits at full power. For ASP modules from B&O, it is either 60 seconds or 30 seconds, depending on module. The Zobel is a weak spot, too. Full rated power at 20khz will FRY it.
Real world music with perhaps a 10db or greater crest factor plays well into these 'd' weaknesses.
Now, the NAD is a fooler in ONE regard. They REALLY piled on the heat sink, at least for a 'd' amp. This will have an effect for the better on what I talk about, above.
I had a GCC 250 for 4 or 5 years, maybe longer. it NEVER got too hot. Warm, maybe. Hot? Not.
Too much is never enough
Not in disagreement to said limitations pictureguy, but A big MAC did fail the FTC preconditioning test , in a few mins according to JA ...
Regards ..
Yeah, sometimes a SURPRISING piece of gear simply doesn't make it. You're 100%.
And speaking of Big Mac, it's friday and time for a FishBurger! just kidding.
The reason is that music really doesn't often press those kinds of limits. For the small %age of time at high power it's heating, when it's at low power it's for 10x longer and cooling. Hopefully, it reaches an average temp somewher short of meltdown.
Too much is never enough
Is at least 15 watts/ch /8 ohm (90w idle) class-A , so according to you, most of your listening with them is in class-A .... :)
No, that is wrong A. Wayne. I said 90 watts for BOTH monoblocks (.i.e. 45 watts per monoblock). That would put it around max. 8-9 watts Class A but given how cool the rather small heatsinks were I would bet that it was far less and there were some watts consumed for lighting of that huge power meter on the front plus a few watts for the input and driver stages. More like 5 watts or less.
I had a big SimAudio Celeste W4250se (1000 watts into 2 ohms) that was biased about 10 watts Class A (according to their literature), had bigger heat sinks than the McIntosh and ran quite warm...something the Macs do not.
I also had a Sphinx Project 14 MkIII that was biased at about 24 watts Class A (consumed 240 watts at idle) and put out 180 watts into 8 ohms, 360 into 4 and 720 into 2 and it ran really warm.
Now I have an amp that is full on 100 watts Class A and single ended and it runs HOT despite having huge heatsinks.
The Mac is barely biased into Class A, the cool temps and small heat sinks and low idle consumption (my phonostage and DAC each consume about the same or more!) says minimal Class A.
10 continuous with 100 peaks is pretty LOUD and wouldn't even raise the '501's pulse.
I wish I had an ACCURATE way to measure such quick to come and go voltages.
Too much is never enough
Use a scope or do what Bob Cordell did in that post i made some time back showing peaks of 250 watts from an rms of 1-2 watts on 89db/w/m speakers, imagine using a JOB225 ... :)
Regards.
Yes, I'd LOVE to use a scope. IF I actually had one or could borrow one for a month.
If I had the funds, a used 60mhz TekTronix dual trace would be my choice.
Too much is never enough
Guys (ladies?....) it is getting sort of hijacking my thread. I am talking about Nad m22. Let's reflect on this being on the positive side and speculate about the right speakers and preamps and stuff. There are plenty of decent equipment out there. The challenge is to find the right partnering gear in an earthly price bracket. And yes class d is here to stay. for 3 grants you get hw that may cost thousand bucks for A or AB implementations. And what the heck I am listening to Spotify premium. I have spent too much already. Just for the thrill of it....
xtsili
Edits: 01/16/15
Although I am learning from you!
xtsili
THat is because Big Macs have small heatsinks because they run mostly Class B.
A friend had MC501s and according to the power regenerator we had them plugged into they drew only 90 watts for the PAIR at idle. That is mostly Class B operation and the heatsinks were only a fraction of the size of those on my 100 watt Class A amp...for a 500 watt monoblock!!
BTW, McIntosh is a classic example of a very powerful amplifier with impeccable measurements (other than the stress test that is) that still doesn't sound very good. The power is irrelevant if the amp isn't very good sounding to begin with. For lack of a better description they sounded a bit gray, dull and lacking dynamic contrast. They had to be played pretty loud to "wake up" and become even a bit interesting to listen to. Maybe this is why you push the power thing so much, because you haven't lived with amps that can deliver the goods at lower volume levels and so you HAVE to pump it up??? Just a hypothesis...
Doesn't sound very good to YOU. No doubt others would disagree. Your opinion: worth price paid...
try it! you know you want to!
Morri,Wrong conclusion again, Have you ever consider that i might be higher up the Audio food chain than yourself and or you give credit to, It just might be you who may be in need of an Awakening.
I dont listen loud, I listen to music at realistic levels, Each genre has a natural volume level to assume realism and this realism if with good DR requires power for size. Any system not able to deliver at low levels will not deliver at high, same as low only , cannot deliver the dynamic realism necessary for "real" , it's why i wont even consider a point source speaker system except for an intimate small setup, you can't expect a single 1 inch dome to sound realistic, Horns being the one exception, even thou , i cant get myself to get past there shouty character.
Mac's are not in my ballpark, So i agree on your Mac evaluation, They are pretty thou, loved the look from my first in the early 70's with their toooby stuff, not SS.
Regards,
Edits: 01/16/15
"I dont listen loud, I listen to music at realistic levels, "
You and I both know that this often means pretty loud...often more than is domestically acceptable. I haven't heard many systems struggle with live acoustic music levels or even amplified Jazz club levels.
If by higher up the food chain you mean the source, well of course have considered this...at quite some length in fact. Cables too. Power conditioning too.
"Horns being the one exception, even thou , i cant get myself to get past there shouty character."
Two things, 1) I agree that conventional point sources don't cut it...I have been a big time planar fan for the last 15 years. 2) You have not heard the best in horns if you think they are all shouty...my Odeon horns are actually very smooth and totally non-shouty because that bothers me as well and kept me away from horns for a long time. I still miss my big ass electrostats sometimes.
Those pretty lights can blind people of the sonics for quite some time...
Never heard Odeons before , is it this model , this is quasi-horn , even harder to integrate than a full horn system, which model Odeon ...? I can see class-D having matching issues with such a speaker, you should try the NAD and report ...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1Qm0V3C70QA
Edits: 01/18/15
No it is not this one, although this one does sound very good. Mine was made in around the year 2000 and is a two-way full horn loaded design. The 10 inch mid woofer is back horn loaded with the mouth opening to the floor, which is why it is on "stilts". The 1 inch compression tweeter is loaded into a solid wood spherical horn.
Cab, you are right nothing like a good 20 watt amp ......
"Going into the Audio Arts room at CES was like going through a time portal into the 1986 CES, as Flim and the BB's classic album Tricycle was playing. The system was based on the top-line Zellaton speakers ($79,750/pair) driven by Swiss CH amplification connected with Schnerzinger cables. According to the meters on the Precision M1 monoblocks ($94,750/pair), while the average level was 4–5W, the peaks on the drums reached 360W and more! Yet the sound remained clean and uncompressed - John Atkinson "
Edits: 01/21/15
Hi again.
I replaced my ss preamp with an hybrid piece of kit, made in Greece where I live.
This preamp works miracles with my NAD M22
http://www.tsakiridis-devices.com/thalia_desc.html
Very big soundstage, meaty sound! valves in proven service of class d!
xtsili
Morri,
More Speculation Again , well my turn, you listen at below realistic levels, you and i know that's too soft for realism and i have heard my fair share of horns, they, like everything in Audio, have a sonic character not suited for me, i know it works for others, especially those refusing to actually buy powerful amplifiers.... :)
refusing to actually buy powerful amplifiers.... :)
Been there, done that, got (several) T-shirts...honestly this is the direction most beginning audiophiles head, primarily on the suggestions of people like you. It is rather silly of you to think that being in this hobby for a good 25 or more years that I wouldn't have tried the high powered, lower sensitivity or low impedance speakers. I already told you that I have had a laundry list of planar and electrostat speakers plus numerous "conventional" designs but I still found that what I was missing could only be found in properly designed, tube and/or hybrid Class A designs.
They head this way because most budget designed Class AB amps suck and they think the problem is lack of power...but its not...it is sound quality from the 1st mW.
Morri,
Just as silly for you to assume after 40 yrs at this hifi dig, i would not have tried mW / high sensitivity speakers myself , i can only conclude you had the wrong hi powered stuff or listen softly , i guess you have the ability to hear realism listening to Beethoven 9th at 78db , nor can you explain away with conjecture what Cordell reported exceeding 250 watts on peaks from 1-2 watt avg , try doing that with your 20watt amp. Impossible to reproduce the live structure of a drum kit with less than 93 db/A closer to 100db/A unclipped for "realism" so ok if this is your goal not to achieve , if you accept and reconize the compromise as such , then ok , but thats not SOTA .....
Regards ..
Cordell reported exceeding 250 watts on peaks from 1-2 watt avg
Peaks for how long?? 10 ms?? Who cares? It is only a minute part of the whole performance. Clipping on peaks doesn't concern so much because our ears are less sensitive to distortion when it gets loud anyway...psychoscoustic studies show this clearly and in practice I find it to be so.
Which mW/high eff. rig have you tried? I have been explicit in what I have owned and you have been less than forthcoming...my assumption is therefore probably more valid than yours given your lack of disclosure.
Beethoven's 9th with 78 db peaks?? You can't be serious. Nearly every speaker on the market will make mid 80s db level with a watt or two...at the listening position. This means with 20 watts or so nearly all of these will make mid to upper 90s db. This is loud enough under most circumstance for even Beethoven's 9th...no its not live level but loud enough to get a realistic feeling...if the quality is good enough...maybe that is what you have lost in your high power pursuit so that you HAVE to turn it up...I have experienced this with some high power SS amps in the past.
"drum kit with less than 93 db/A closer to 100db/A unclipped for "realism"
At what distance?? Be specific!
"And power from a 'd' amp? Totally up for grabs since I don't think ANY of them can survive an FTC style test with a preconditioning period at some %age of 'rated' power."
Well then... If that's disturbing to you try one using the FTC criteria and if she smokes return it to your dealer and notify the FTC. Simple.
I'd say the odds of anyone marketing an amplifier in the US that does NOT meet the FTC requirements is essentially zero. If they really are THAT stupid then there are probably plenty of other concerns regarding their product.
Go tiger...
Rick
When Stereophile tests an amp, they run it at 1/3rd power for a while BEFORE measurments. They also take a subjective read on how HOT it got. Stuff like 'you can leave your hand on it fine' but I don't think they measure temps.
I don't know how a 'd' amp would take to that treatment.
Look at the spec sheets for D amps. The maximum power for the B&O ASP series is either 60 seconds or 30 seconds. This is also not necessarily bad. Only people listening to Sine Waves would be effected, Unless perhaps you just listen as LOUD as it'll go, until it quits!
Too much is never enough
nt
try it! you know you want to!
Post a Followup:
| FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
Top of Page ]
[ Contact Us ]
[ Support/Wish List ]
[ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
