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In Reply to: RE: Is that all you have in response? posted by morricab on January 13, 2015 at 00:32:18
Funny how I innocently posted my enthousiasm about a certain device that I just bought and happen to like a lot and it becomes a "class D vs all the others" hainous debate.
In the context of my system, it sounds great. I can't find any fault so far. Does it make it the absolute best? is it the "new technology that will rule all the others"? Of course not. I don't believe in the inherent superiority of something audio. It's all compromise, choice, and finding what suits your taste/context.
If anybody here doubts about my capacity to critically listen and recognize "good sound", let them be, I know what I'm made of, thank you.
Arguing about what's "best" in a hobby where you can chose anything from wide band single drivers to full blown multiple drivers power hungry 3,5ohms monsters not forgetting planars and statics and multiple horn systems, where you can chose from 1000watts SS monoblocs to active multi-amplification with again the choice between multiple classes of amplification, between tubes and solid state, digital front end / analog front end... is pueril at best, and if you ask me, is complete nonsense.
Follow Ups:
I couldn't agree more! As you said, "It's all compromise, choice, and finding what suits your taste/context." That's EXACTLY what I have been saying....I'm not arguing about amp types, I am arguing for freedom from the self-righteous snobs here who would have you believe class d "doesn't measure up" and is "flawed". They will tell you that you don't know what live music sounds like, that if you like class d, you aren't a "critical listener". They will tell you that unless you agree with them, your tastes are inferior.I find such ignorant snobbery at odds with the stated rules of this forum.
I see no need to insult the tastes and preferences of others in order to validate one's own prejudicial subjective biases.
I see you understand that. Others seem to have a fundamental deficiency...
try it! you know you want to!
Edits: 01/13/15
What IS that system? Many of us, including Morricab and me, post ours in "Inmate Systems," but unless you have done something since yesterday, I don't have a clue as to what you are listening to (or through).
And Dave, the harsh tone of my answer wasn't adressed to you, it was more a reaction on the gneral tone that this post turned into.
Your question relative to what my system is made of is completely normal and I hope my answer was detailed enough ;) I'm of course curious about analog replay but I also believe analog to sound at his best requires some investment I'm not yet able to make.
... because I thought I was responding to the original class d fan, not you :-0
Your system is perfectly fine and clearly a labor of love.
My only point being that since i found a couple supposedly topnotch class d amps to sound so, um, lacking in my system and since the main proponent of them in this thread has neglected to list his own setup in Inmate Systems, there was a certain level of frustration afoot. For me.
'Course I haven't heard all the class d amps around. Who has?
"My only point being that since i found a couple supposedly topnotch class d amps to sound so, um, lacking in my system and since the main proponent of them in this thread has neglected to list his own setup in Inmate Systems, there was a certain level of frustration afoot. For me."
The message is "there is no best-enjoy what you like". You don't like class d, GREAT! Enjoy whatever it is you like. Just don't try to tell me my choice doesn't measure up, is flawed, question my listening ability, or otherwise try to validate your own prejudiced subjective preferences by tearing down those of others with insults.
My system is only relevant for me...
try it! you know you want to!
Still, considering the wide range of options available, and the sometimes mysterious synergy that comes from it, if someone likes class D and you don't, what does it say about class d? nothing. :)
this is all about fun, it's good to educate sometimes, but in the inherently flawed process of trying to recreate live music trough electronic devices, personal taste will always be the final frontier, and there's no reason arguing about things then. my point of view anyways. ;)
Well at the risk again of not being taken seriously because my system is partly vintage and DIY and didn't cost as much as a new car (have no problem with megabucks stuff, can't afford it, wich somehow seems to force me to be confined to the "vintage" section of this forum, sadly enough) here's the stuff I use:
SPEAKERS: Klipsch LaScala base. Only bass horn, bass driver and midrange driver are original. Midrange horn is EV SM120A. Tweeters are Beyma cP25. Passive crossovers are the now (sadly) discontinued ALK engineering "Universal" klispch heritage replacement networks, wich are based on the Klipsch "type AA" network, adding filtering of the midrange section's upper end, the ability to change midrange setting trough various transformer taps while keeping the global impedance 8ohms flat, and making use of Hovland "Musicaps" and litz-wire coils.
They sound very different from the original LaScala, only keeping the high sensitivity, huge dynamics, and fast articulated bass.
PREAMP: a very rare device, Korn&Macway SP100, Belgian brand that relocated in the USA somewhere in the 80's. Probably unheard of on this forum, but it's a fantastic preamp, said (and i'm expecting some criticisms again for quoting this, but whatever) to be in the same league as the famed Treshold "FET" series of preamps from the same era. All I can say is that it sounds indeed great, and is built to very high standards inside and out. Again, here, I'm expecting the nay-sayers to show their nose and say that you can't take seriously a preamp that is not a known reference in the audio world. Blah.
SOURCE: the cheapest of all, KENWOOD DP7090 from the nineties, recommended and awarded at the time as one of the best deals in the digital world, finishing third in a "Nouvelle Revue Du Son" french magazine just behind megabuck players from Cairn and Copland, and before players costing two to four times it's price. Nowadays it's still a more than decent player, but it's Kenwood and it was "cheap" to start with so again I don't expect to be taken seriously.
CABLES: VanDenHul "the integration hybrid" interconnects troughout, QED "original" speaker cables due to the long lenghts I had to get for my bigger than average listening room.
Add in two reflex-loaded "pro" drivers, a 15inch and a 18inch, respectively from Beyma (SM115K) and BagEnd, driven from the same Miller&Kreisel sub amp, crossed at 50Hz.
Due to severe budget restrictions I always had to have a non-conventional view on high quality audio, mixing and matching and making the best out of what I could afford. On the other hand, I'm not musician myself but I come from a family of music lovers, my cousin being a now well regarded jazz guitar player, with already a few widely and worldly available albums signed with difefrent labels, his wife being a jazz singer and teacher at the Music Conservatory in Berlin, and myself having very eclectic taste in music, I believe I know what music is supposed to sound like.
I realise how "defensive" this all sounds but i'm a bit tired of reading always the same doubts concerning us "bottom feeders" and our ability to understand the magic and science of good sound.
I owned Klipsch La Scallas many years ago in college. Mine were stock so I have no idea what your changes have done to the sound for better or worse. Today I find the stock version a bit too colored but still a lot of resolution and fun.
Preamp: Never heard of it.
Regarding your source: the KP7090 has a lot of potential actually:
http://www.lampizator.eu/lampizator/REFERENCES/Kenwood7090/Kenwood%20CD%207090%20CD%20player%20lampizator.html
My advice if you are a bit handy with a soldering iron is to Lampizate it!! You are probably throwing away a ton of its potential running stock. If you lampizate it then it will be a serious machine despite the humble origins. A lampizator kit is not very expensive.
Your sub arrangement is unconventional to say the least, why two different subs? Why not two of the 15 or two of 18?
I realize what hifi on a budget is like. For a long time I didn't think the amp mattered at all because all I could afford were budget receivers that all sounded similar. Then I got to hear some good stuff and realized it all matters. When I was reviewing I got to hear the REALLY good stuff and was living with a top shelf violinist and making recordings etc. That was the real education.
What I would suggest though is to read some research into sound quality from real scientific inquiries and draw your own conclusions. You may not think it applies to you but at least see what guys who have really thought about these issues and studied them have to say.
I got quickly bothered by the LaScala's beamy midrange horn and rough response. But I didn't want to give up on them. I'm very happy about the outcome, they are as dynamic as ever, but are now much smoother, with a wider sweet spot, much better imaging, and above all they're now truly resolving and transparent as opposed to just "sensitive" and "difficult" as they were before, if you see what i mean (letting you hear more of the music and the recording instead of being just amplifier-picky - wich they still are)
The preamp is great, but it has quite a lot of gain wich proved problematic when used with some other power amplifiers but strangely enough seems to match perfectly with the little T-amp. That was my biggest fear. I'm joining a link to some internet pictures of it, if you care to have a look.
I've read about the "lampizated" kenwood already, I would love to do that indeed, problem is I'm not so good with a soldering iron (yet)... changing big caps on a board I might learn to do, but this seems to be more difficult with smaller parts involved, smaller PCB tracks... one day maybe, or i should find someone handy to do it for me.
To answer one of your previous posts (that for some reason I hadn't seen), no I never tried SET amps, budget and practicality (other, non-audiophile people using the system) make it an impossibility so far. Right now very happy with what I have ;)
I have a Kinergetics KCD-55 Ultra DAC from the early 90s that uses the rare and expensive UltraAnalog 20 bit DAC modules (it made this model nearly double the price of it's sister that used the also very good Burr Brown PCM-63K DAC). BUT the output stage broke. So now I have a Lampizator Amber output stage that I am tapping off of the DACs. I haven't got it all working yet (some technical issues) but I think it is gonna be my last DAC. I also have the Monarchy Audio M24 DAC, which is also superb (BB PCM63K chips tube output, no opamps or transistors) but I think the Kinergetics will beat it.
I have Odeon "La Boheme" speakers, which use a folded horn and a 1 inch compression driver for the tweeter but in a spherical wooden horn. As near as I can tell this results in close to zero coloration form the horn...it is probably the best I have heard from a horn in that regard. They are a bit lower in sensitivity than the Klipsch (98 vs 104) but it still takes but a few watts to get LOUD. I run either a parallel SET with 300B tubes (JJ 322) or my NAT Symbiosis SET hybrid. The NAT is a bit overdamping the speakers so it is a bit leaner sounding with this amp and the JJ is fuller sounding. Horns really don't need the amp to make a lot of damping.
I have a Kinergetics KCD-55 Ultra DAC from the early 90s that uses the rare and expensive UltraAnalog 20 bit DAC modules (it made this model nearly double the price of it's sister that used the also very good Burr Brown PCM-63K DAC). BUT the output stage broke. So now I have a Lampizator Amber output stage that I am tapping off of the DACs. I haven't got it all working yet (some technical issues) but I think it is gonna be my last DAC. I also have the Monarchy Audio M24 DAC, which is also superb (BB PCM63K chips tube output, no opamps or transistors) but I think the Kinergetics will beat it. - morricab
I have a Stax quattro 2 CDP from that era that I was very fond of , very non digital sounding ....havent used in years , should re-cap and give it a go again ...
Regards
Edits: 01/18/15
I was looking into that one but I found out that the Ultraanalog digital receivers went Kablooey after some years due to overheating, so I have steered away now from models that used it. Apparently they were great until they died.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
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