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In Reply to: RE: BWAHAHAHAHA!!!! posted by E-Stat on December 18, 2014 at 06:18:05
They didn't say it on sound quality - they were *terrible*.
The latest ones are rivaling (and beating) much more expensive linear brands. In my opinion, of course. The (Dutch) Hypex modules have the most to do with this.
*Now* those benefits of smaller size, low heat, etc. are looking like threats.
It took a while - but this is audio. Look how long it took to remove the artifacts of digital sound. Or to produce a world-beating direct-drive turntable (like VPIs).
Follow Ups:
Digital still has plenty of artifacts just compare it to the new VPI (or an even half decent Rega).
As for the VPI DD, the Japanese had this perfected by the late 70s early 80s. Some of them are still world standards.
I've owned and auditioned a number of DD tables from the 70s including top end models from Technics and Denon. I prefered a traditional belt drive design like the Ariston RD-11s (sibling to Linn LP-12) - which I still use today in the garage system almost forty years later.
To each his own but I guess that VPI main man decided otherwise, despite decades of top line belt drives and used the great DDs as an inspiration. I had some great belt-drives as well, the best being a 3 motor Voyd with split-phase supply but my Yamaha GT-2000 is better overall. Dynamics from the Voyd were awesome but it was too noisy (arm was also the superb Helius Cyalene). The dynamics of the Yamaha are about equal but it is superbly quiet (-85db rumble).
FWIW, I don't think Technics ever made one with a motor that was truly non-cogging, except perhaps the MK3 version of the SP10, nor did Denon from what I have read at least. There was one extreme Denon made for broadcast but I doubt that is the one you are referring to.
For a non-cogging DD you had to go with Kenwood, Yamaha (only the GT2000 I think...maybe the lower GTs as well), the Pioneer Exclusive P3 or P10, The ultra exotic Onxyo where the platter was the rotor and maybe the top Sony broadcast deck. The JVC 101 is supposed to be superb as well but I don't think the motor design is truly non-cogging.
I am certainly not an expert on the matter, but Harry claims that his new motor truly does not cog - like virtually all models from decades ago. There was aYoutube video found on the Vinty asylum a while back that explains the motor technology and high cost.
There were motors from that time that did not cog but they were not commercially available, being true custom designs of the manufacturers. Now, thin gap (where Harry gets his design) and a few other companies make inherently cog free motors. It is rare but not unprecedented. In fact I found my own zero cogging solution that I am implementing into my own DIY design...the motor was not cheap...nor was the control system.
Using servo correction ..? If so , cogging ....
nope, not cogging...the fact that you suggest that speed regulation is inherently from cogging tells me you don't know much about DC motors. In fact servo correction cannot "correct" for cogging. It is an inherent feature in most motor designs that isn't that important for most applications but happens to be very important for turntables.
Nope, I did not suggest anything , if servo correcting there will be speed errors, Cogging is not due to servo correction, that's not what i implied, what i did state prior is there is no such thing as zero cogging in TT motors i have seen, same as no such thing as feedback free in amplifiers ...A slotless permanent magnet motor does not have any cogging torque, but it also has very low TQ, hence the humongous size necessary to compensate for the lost TQ. Now imagine this motor right under your table and it's magnetic effect in operation. Such a motor would have to be placed maybe 3 ft below the platter, is this how your no "cogging" TT made..
C'mon Cab, you need a better 1st serve ......
Regards..
Edits: 12/22/14 12/22/14 12/22/14 12/22/14
You said,
"Using servo correction ..? If so , cogging .... "
The words you use are Servo correction? If so, cogging... this is strongly implying that you meant the two were inherently related...your words not mine. Try rereading what you post before opening your mouth and inserting your foot. You can now claim you didn't mean that but the words are there and the implication clear.
"What i did state prior is there is no such thing as zero cogging in TT motors" . This is just not true. What you state about the magnetic fields is a potential issue but it can be combated effectively with mu-metal sheets under the platter. Again, you seem to be convoluting cogging with other potential issues (such as stray magnetic field influence on the phono cartridge) that has nothing to do with the motor turning smoothly.
It would be interesting to see if you could produce one post where you stay on message. If you were to say, "yes, you eliminate cogging but potentially cause other issues" then we could have a discussion but you say stupid stuff that convolutes the two different issues together.
BTW, there are feedback free amplifiers as well...just for next time you won't say dumb stuff again...
What about VPIs design? the motor is IN the platter.
Cab,There is so much Irony in your ignorant replies i cant stop laughing , i can see you making the leap you did , but if you would stop looking at my replies in isolation and parsing you will get my drift and degeneration is feedback , so dont confuse low feedback with zero feedback , you can now go ahead and show us these zero feedback free amplifiers with their 20% thd at 2 watt, just the way you love them ...
As i said before, I'm beginning to believe you have never heard or had a good system , you enjoy lifeless with poor to scale sound with high thd and clipped dynamics , from your under powered setups, it's musical to you , what you have is a great imagination...VPI spent a fortune on that motor, im sure shielding for its proximity was taken into place, many roads to Damascus , if you like DD , so be it , doesnt stop the others from working ...
Stick a Grado on it and tell me if it hums .... :)
Cheers ...
Edits: 12/24/14 12/24/14 12/24/14 12/24/14 12/24/14
http://www.firstwatt.com/sit1.html
Here is an amp without any feedback. As you can see it makes about 10 watts at 5% THD...almost all of which is 2nd order and therefore very benign. With a high sensitivity speaker this will likely sound superb...and its not even a tube amp!
As i said before, I'm beginning to believe you have never heard or had a good system , you enjoy lifeless with poor to scale sound with high thd and clipped dynamics , from your under powered setups, it's musical to you , what you have is a great imagination...
I am of the mind that you have never heard anything even approaching a natural sounding system. You can believe of me what you want...I get a lot of request for advice and have had many copiers once they heard my systems...if I am delusional then it is a mass delusion.
I find it funny now you will defend VPI's choice of putting the motor in the platter on the assumption that they took the magnetic fields into account (not an easy thing to do in a steel platter) but don't give me the benefit of the doubt, instead prattling on about cogging and then changing tactics to magnetic fields etc. I have done my research and know the potential issues that potentially plague all DD turntables...I simply think they are a superior alternative as are several other high end TT makers. Never said there weren't good belt-drives though...maybe you like misrepresentation for your strawmen???
Lol Cab,So TechDas missed the memo on DD , i guess you going to tell me about your Technics turntable too while you are at it. Let me know when you get your DD, VPI superior to an AF1.. BD gives the best isolation , designed right there is no drive issues, anyone can spin the science to fit their doctrine , in audio there are no absolutes , only a delicate balance of topologies and application.
DD have their advantages over belt , rock solid speed is not it, acceleration is ....
Regards
Edits: 12/25/14
Again, comprehension problems?? I never said belt=bad. Once again, you want to oversimplify the argument to make your strawman...I never said a well executed beltdrive is bad...it IS a cheaper way to make a TT because you don't need nearly as good a motor.
I wouldn't say that belt drive gives inherently better isolation as the noise of the best DD TTs is actually lower than anything I have seen for a belt drive (Yamaha GT2000 -85db and the Kenwood L07D -94db).
"Rock solid speed is not it, acceleration is ....
I have measurements that show otherwise...
Cab,Love the irony of you admitting to loving the sound of high Thd and limited dynamics , such colorations sounds lovely to your ears , yes i can see that , same as you missing the part about high thd and low watt, you should read back slowly, only the F1,F2 , were done so , and with the drive you like no power , high Thd, you will notice not so for F3 onwards and not with any of NP other worth while efforts ( Im sure you could find a tooby contender ) and since you do nothing remotely reasonably scientific in your comparisions, no testing , no level matching , no playback dB levels , nothing , your advise is with serious salt and if what you say is correct it's Mass bad hiFi , not only mass Delusion ...
Regards ..
Edits: 12/25/14
I meant solid aluminum platter...it is not steel in the VPI...still pretty tough to shield something imbedded in a solid platter.
The DP-60/62/70/80 were, and still are, world-class turntables. And they look fantastic - such nice, heavy bases and gorgeous woodwork...
-RW-
If the Japanese perfected direct-drive turntables - nobody in North America or Europe knew about it. They were listening to the great German, British or American belt drives.
Pretty narrow-minded view I would say. The Japanese never forgot and now the DDs from Japan ARE known in the west with the best ones highly sought after.
They didn't say it on sound quality...
*Now* those benefits of smaller size, low heat, etc. are looking like threats.
For those who place low value on sound quality, I would agree.
*Quality* has absolutely nothing to do with those choices.
Some folks have not spent time with the latest Hypex-backed designs. If they did, they would not respond with such ignorance....
I wish you and Mr. Putz the very best in convincing the high end community that we're all deaf. :)
High-end community ? Read the reviews of the above-mentioned switching amps.
Your ignorance is worse than I thought.
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