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In Reply to: RE: Have to take the Lamm M1.1 off my list posted by morricab on December 01, 2014 at 02:10:03
Brad I want to personally thank you for being so honest! More audiophile/music lovers & especially reviewers should be like this! It's not only ok, but essential for all audiophile/music lovers and especially reviewers to admit; "When I first listened to this component I had a different opinion of the sound than I presently do. Upon longer term listening, I'm now convinced my initial listening impression was the wrong one! This is not a component I can recommend purchasing." I (thetubeguy) for one, see no harm in a reviewer saying this. In fact, it's my opinion doing this would give the reviewer's listening skills & integrity a big boost in my eyes and I believe it would do the same in the eyes of other audiophile/music lovers as well.
I'd give his listening skills more credence ---{provided his change of opinion mirrors mine if & when I hear the component}--- because he says what he actually hears, even when doing so means by changing what he initially said, some people might make negative comments about his listening & reviewing capabilities. I'm personally convinced doing this would provide both his and the audio mag he reviews for a HUGE boost in integrity! Sadly we all live in a day and age, where many people are much more concerned with how they'll look and/or what people "might" say about them, than they are about speaking the truth and keeping their heads up high. I honestly admire people, like yourself, who have the intestinal fortitude to place the truth over what people might think and/or say about them. In all sincerity, my hat is off to you Brad. Following your example I must publically admit, you're not the person I had mistakenly thought you were. I hope you'll accept my apology for this error in judgment I made about your character...
I'm listening to: Sophie Milman by Sophie Milman
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Follow Ups:
The only issue with negative commentary is that while it seems truthful you have to be somewhat careful putting more stock into the negative.
This is still a system matching issue. What does LAMM use as their reference speakers? If it is Apogee and Thiel that's one thing but maybe they loathe Apogee and Thiel and for their particular front end equipment they would wish you to use a variety of other speakers.
There are speakers that I absolutely love that have sounded utterly dreadful with inappropriate gear. When judging a specific component I want to hear the specific component at least 3 times with three different systems attached in three different (appropriate) rooms.
Assuming that the gear attached would be something the manufacturer would reasonably use.
Hello RGA!I know all about system synergy! Let me clarify my position ok? I presently use a tubed Goldenote Stibbert CDP ver. 5 CDP as a transport with an Audio-gd Reference 7.1 DAC for my source. The signal they provide is fed to a 40W/ch Mastersound Reference 845, integrated, SET amp. Which in turn amplified the signal and passes it to pair of Sachiko double-back-loaded horns loaded w/Dayton PS220-8 ---{ w/Rispoli treated cones }--- single "fullrange" drivers and Fostex T900a super-tweeters. The T900a's are crossed in at 8Khz, while the PS220-8 run fullrange. The wires I use consist of speaker wires and digital wire custom made by Rispoli and the ICs are Grover Huffman SRC II. While the Mastersound and the Stibbert aren't inexpensive, I'd say most everything else in my system is! But it didn't start that way, oh no.
Remember those $200/pr Grover Huffman ICs I mentioned up above? Well they replaced a pair of $10K Stealth Audio Sakra ICs in my system. And the $600 custom made Rispoli speaker wires replaced $11.5K Stealth Audio Dream speaker wires! Now before I go any further I need to make 100% sure everyone understands I believe the Stealth Audio wires are one of the very few of wires being made to day that can claim to be a true Reference-Level wire! When using one of Stealth Audio's top three ICs, speaker wires, digital etc. in a system in which they have correct system synergy they will literally take your breath away and raise goose-bumps the size of mountains on your arms & legs.
So you're now probably asking yourself; What kind of fool makes such a statement and then replaces one of Serguei Timachev's ---{ Serguei is Stealth Audio's founder & cable designer }--- IC wires with IC wires that cost about 50X less? Well I'd respond to that by stating; " A person like Brad, who's committed towards being truthful about what he's heard. " You'd have to understand at first I didn't even want to try using the $200/pr. Huffman SRC II ICs but, after much cajoling by my friend, I was finally convinced to try the SRC II when he said; " Wouldn't it be a hoot if those inexpensive SRC II ICs actually happened to have better system synergy than your $10K ICs and sounded better? }--- Well a hoot was exactly what it was, because in my particular case, when used in my system between the Goldenote & Mastersound the SRC II actually did have better system synergy! Does that mean the SRC II ICs are better than the Sakras? HELL NO! I'd wager that 99.999999999% of the time the Stealth Sakras would blow those SRC II ICs away. It just happened I was that .000000001% of the time when they Sakras didn't.
I learned a lot when assembling my present system. System synergy is very important when attempting to obtain a component's best performance or sound. I know this because in the end I also replaced the $11.5K Dream speaker wires with $600 Rispoli custom-made speaker wires and my $1.8K Fostex FE208ES-R fullrange drivers with $256/pr. Dayton PS220-8 fullrange drivers! I'd be willing to wager some serious cash that the Stealth Sakras and Stealth Dreams would embarrass the Huffman and Rispoli wires in most systems about 99.999999999% of the time! To be completely honest, to this day I'm still completely amazed at what happened. I can honestly say I've taken the Sakras to other people's homes where we replaced the owners ICs with the Sakras. Most times there was a very noticeable sonic improvement, but one time the improvement the Sakra's made was so great it almost like someone took a sheet off of the person's speakers! And while I won't state the specific make & model, I'll tell you those ICs the Sakras bested sonically were also VERY expensive. So yes RGA I fully understand your feelings about using the LAMM ---{ and all other components for that matter }--- with components that complements the other component's sonic pluses & minuses. My one caveat would be "if" an audio component only works with a very few other audio component's, I'd consider that audio component flawed and not worth a recommendation!
I needed to post all that RGA so you'd realize I have a decent handle on the knowledge of a component's needing to be used with other components that will coax the best sound from it! Now getting back to my comment about Brad. I had this caveat attached to my response; "I'd give his listening skills more credence ---{ provided his change of opinion mirrors mine if & when I hear the component }---..." Plus my post wasn't so much about what Brad heard as it was about:
1) his being honest about what he heard.
2) his integrity for truthfully admitting:
---a) he may have been mistaken in his initial impression of a component's sound.---b) he must now changed what his recommendation about this component's sound, because of a.
3) his willingness to endure the negative comments some people might now begin making publically in audio forums such as A.A, about his listening & reviewing capabilities, because he changed his initial listening impression.This is a trait of a person with integrity and I admire integrity in everyone I see it. Sadly these days it's a trait that's lacking in too many people. I believe most audiophile/music lovers are smart enough to know that the LAMM would need to be heard in more than one system before they make a final decision about it's sound quality. So as you can see RGA I completely agree with your method of hearing a component in at least three different systems before judging a component's sound. Now although Brad didn't mention it, I have a feeling this wasn't the first or only other system Brad's heard the LAMM sound less than stellar in. I'd like to believe it was only after finally hearing this last combination he decided to publically change his opinion! Maybe Brad will clarify or further expound on why he finally changed his recommendation of the LAMM? After all I might just be mistaken...
I'm listening to: Sticks & Stones by Ray Obiedo
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Edits: 12/02/14 10/28/15 10/28/15
I guess there is always the possibility that his LAMMs were actually not functioning correctly...I guess...
There is always the possibility that you weren't functioning correctly as well....
try it! you know you want to!
Excellent over-view Tom. Sometimes, it is hard to expalin/imagine system synergy. You nailed it down, my Audiophile friend.
Morricab had a lot of experiences with LAMM, - and has piled up some other experiences, with other gear that made him question those....Perhaps if any of us had those experiences, we would come to the same conclusions.
It's a big stretch to extrapolate some sort of dishonesty from 1 person's change of opinion based on new evidence.
Cheers,
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 12/02/14
Nothing to say about Cab's opinion on Lamm, its his opinion , I'm questioning his rotational science to justify his conclusion , in actuality I' m in agreement with him and a bit further by saying Duh!
Very Obvious why Lamm would not work on those particular speakers and why Cab would and or could verify his negative evaluations ..
When one tries to push their opinion into some sort of universalizable objective fact, - is when one goes wrong.
Personally, - I've never heard a pair of LAMM mono-blocks sound anything but wonderful, - but I've only heard them with speakers that I love.
Isolating out a particular amplifier, out of context, is a recipe for disaster.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Especially if sitting 1M away from them ....:)
"What does LAMM use as their reference speakers?" Who cares? Based on what I have heard from Mr. Lamm it seems he designs the amps without any particular voicing to speakers but to his own supposed listening models. His amp is capable of driving all speakers easily.
"When judging a specific component I want to hear the specific component at least 3 times with three different systems attached in three different (appropriate) rooms.
"
Spare me your dogma, ok? I have A LOT of experience with Apogees (three different models...does that count...all with different load and sensitivity characteristics) and now these Thiels as well and we have heard A LOT of different amps on these speakers (well over a dozen between all the friends). Two of the three Apogee models are relatively easy to drive (Studio Grand is an easy 5 ohm load with 87db sensitivity and the Centaur Major is simliar...only the Scintialla is a hard to drive 1 ohm but the LAMM can do so easily). Thiels should pose no matching problems for an amp that can easily drive Scintillas.
The point is that all of these speakers in question are super revealing and have allowed us to clearly identify what the electronics are doing in the system. The LAMM in this context is a let down and therefore I expect it will be likewise in other systems...the underlying characteristics didn't change depending on the system from what I heard.
The lamm is not suitable for Apogee's and the 3.7, obvious if you take a look at it's lack of current drive, which makes your comments only suitable for similar type speakers. As you i loathe dinky toy amps, so this amp would not be on my list , but i/we have to also acknowledge there are quite a few enjoying their Lamm's....Regards...
Edits: 12/02/14
Apogees that are flat 5 ohms are NOT a difficult load. Thiels while more difficult are not REALLY difficult loads. LAMM is able to almost double its power from 4 ohm to 2 ohm, indicating more than sufficient current to drive the relatively sensitive Thiels.
Please show me where it demonstrates a lack of current drive. The power being the same at 8 ohm and 4 ohm is BY DESIGN in that the power supply is optimized for each load depending on its settings. JA only tested the 8 ohm load in the 6 - 8 ohm setting and only tested 4 and 2 ohms in the 1 - 6 ohm settings. So, looking at the two impedances tested in the 1 -6 ohm settings we can clearly see that there is sufficient current capability to nearly double the power from 4 to 2 ohms. Where is the lack of current drive??!!??
Also, did it occur to you that in 8 and 4 ohm at least this is CLASS A power and not AB?? This means the power supply is probably designed like a 400 watt Class AB amp.
You can take your crappy sounding "muscle" amps because I haven't heard one yet that makes real music. Not one. I had them in the past and my friends with Apogees and Thiels ALL went through their muscle amp phase (the guy with Thiels had McIntosh MC501 monos before...muscle enough for you?), Krell, Musical Fidelity KW750, etc. before realizing that this may play loud without strain but it doesn't SOUND good.
The LAMMS were bought specifically to drive 1 ohm Scintillas because they have a power supply that can take it and delivers even MORE power into 1 ohm than into 2 ohms (no longer in Class A of course down there). Lack of current capability??? You must be mad!
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