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In Reply to: RE: Have to take the Lamm M1.1 off my list posted by morricab on December 01, 2014 at 02:10:03
Thanks! for sharing. The Thiel CS 3.7 is an outstanding reference loudspeaker. Which hybrid amp would you suggest?
Follow Ups:
doesn't mean that they don't.....
I have heard plenty of great iterations of LAMM monoblocks sound wonderful. Doesn't mean that they work with all speakers, - or don't sound worse than some other amps with Thiels: which I've always heard as clinical, and un-dynamic.
No way would I ever attach the word "reference" to anything resembling a Thiel product.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I thought so too until two things: 1) I heard the old CS3.6 with all BAT gear (BAT tube monos) and that was very good and 2) Heard my friends CS3.7s with KR Audio VA350i and VAC 30/30...both of which banished the clinical from this speaker without sacrificing details. In fact, the enhancement of soundstage depth and sound decay was superior to other amps that on the surface seemed more "detailed" but I would say that the information needed to make a nice realistic soundstage, with suitable recordings of course, was better conveyed with the KR and the VAC.
Maybe it's taste?
R.
Sordidman-
as Tom as stated above, system synergy is everything. Most audiophiles waste time w/ systems that cost too much and do not yield synergy.
We all have our likes and dislikes. The key, is to get out there and listen, listen and listen to the gear!
.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
This is somewhat of a long shot considering you were looking at Lamm, but the Van Alstine hybrids seem to be popular over at AC. I believe he offers an audition period as well. The Moscode amps were always somewhat well received for what it's worth. Haven't heard much of them lately though.
Truth be told, the Thiels can easily sound a bit hard and unforgiving if the electronics are not really smooth. They tend to exaggerate flaws in gear...or maybe they are just super truthful...hard to say exactly.
One of the best hybrids I have heard is the AcousticPlan Santor. It is not a big or powerful amp (50 watts) but it sounds very good. The Pathos TT sounds very good but needs sensitive and easy to drive speakers.
The Sphinx Project 14 is very good but not the last word in resolution. Its bigger brother adds the resolution but is rare as hen's teeth.
The Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000 I heard with Apogee Duettas was very impressive as well.
This new Ypsilon integrated amp is killer sounding but pricey (still nowhere near the price of their monoblocks)
The best hybrids I have heard though are from KR Audio. Yes, they are not traditional hybrid because they are all SS EXCEPT for the output, which is tube but they sound amazing.
My NAT is also superb but also super rarer. It is one of only 3 SET hybrids (of the conventional layout) that I have seen marketed. The other two are from Blue Circle Audio (BC-2, BC-2.1 and BC2000) and Ypsilon (Their huge SET 100 monos). One big difference though is that both the Ypsilon and Blue Circle use multiple transistors on the output...my NAT uses ONE transistor only on the output and is fully direct coupled. Ysilon uses input, interstage AND output transformers...a lot like a tube SET.
My NAT sounds closer to an OTL than anything else I can compare it with. I guess the Ypsilon will lean closer to a traditional SET given all the iron in the circuit.
I was not very happy with the sound of the Einstein "The Absolute Tune" that I had. It sounded a lot like the LAMMS but less hard. It bored me, especially coming from the superb sound of KR Audio. The NAT sounds like the Einstein a bit until it warms up fully and THEN it gets really really good.
On a budget I would think about the Pathos Classic One or with efficient speakers the TT.
My Einstein Turntables Choice phono preamp has garnered very high praise from every reviewer so I am disappointed in your experience with the preamp.
Edits: 12/02/14
Thank You! for the intel.
Until I can demo the Verity Speaker line- Thiel remains my reference.
Yes, most think it is harsh and bright, it requires very careful electronics matching for a rewarding listening experience.
It IS tilted up a bit at least in my friend's listening room so it will exaccerbate issues already in the electronics.
I am not a fan of Verity speakers. A friend of mine had the Rinezis and they got crushed by a 20 year old pair of Reference 3a Master Control MMCs. This friend found a pair after hearing mine and fell in love with the sound. I heard his Verity speakers and it was no contest.
Also, I have heard the big Sarastro a couple of times and IMO, it is not a well designed speaker...coherence between the drivers is sorely lacking...you can even see this in the Stereophile measurements,which are quite poor for a speaker so expensive.
The Parsifal did sound nice one time when I heard it with the big Nagra 845 tube amps. That was with a big R2R tape deck as well. Since then though I have become much more attuned to coherence in speakers and it is likely I would not be impressed with the Parsifal any longer.
The Thiel is far more coherent and integrated soundwise. In this respect, it beats out most multi-driver speakers.
Really the best sound we got was the VAC30/30, which also sounded surprisingly bright until it warmed up and then it was simply astounding. It is right at the top of my list for push/pull amps (I am still a SET guy though). The amp belongs to the friend with the other pair of Master control MMC...nice combo!
I concur -the 3a is a nice speaker. Many Thanks for your impressions on the Verity speakers.
Yes, the VAC/VTL are on my short-list to demo as well.
Recently, I have been reading about the synergy between B.A.T. and Thiel.
Add this one to my list!
Heard the Thiel CS3.6 with BAT VK120 monos and VK5i preamp many years ago...very impressive!
Embarresly stealing some of Cabs Vocabulary, a Ref 3a is a toy speaker, cant understand someone bringing this speaker up when describing and tearing down SOTA level stuff ...
Regards..
I wouldn't regard 3A loudspeakers as "toys" by any stretch. On more than one occasion I've heard them come across far more pleasing than some of the big (allegedly SOTA) flagship offerings. Not to mention the countless reviews where a reviewer is stunned by how well inexpensive ( let's say less than 5K ) speakers can really sing when coupled with much pricier amplification. In the end it's all about synergy.
So, getting the story straight seems to be an issue with you.
I have heard the LAMMS on the following speakers:
Apogee Scintilla
Apogee Studio Grand
Apogee Centaur Major
Thiel CS3.7
Supportive gear was varied but all very high end stuff (Einstein, Silvaweld, Meitner, Resolution audio etc.)
I own currently Reference 3A Master Control MMC...still one of the best small monitor speakers I have heard, Reference 3A L'integrale...a very nice small floorstanding speaker and Odeon "La Boheme" horn speakers (not small). These are full horn with a 10inch backloaded horn and a wooden horn loaded tweeter. They are big and 98db/watt and also very coherent.
If you want my past speakers; here is a partial list:
Genesis VI
Acoustat Spectra 4400 (big 8 foot tall truly full range estats)
Acoustat Spectra 2200
Acoustat 1+1 with medallion interface and upgraded caps
Apogee Caliper Signature
Audiostatic ES100
Infinity IRS Beta (yes the big 4 tower model one step down from the IRSV)
Infiinty Modulus sub/sat system
Dynaudio Contour 1.8MkII
Dynaudio Contour 1.3
Not too many "toys" in that list and a couple of outright big ass speakers.
A side from the reference 3a's none on that list would suite the Lamm and none on the list you used to test the Lamm would i have expected the lamm to sound good on , i have also heard , tested and or listened to every speaker you listed except the dynaudio's..
No neophyte here, funny you think 250watts can work on an app, to over a 100db, so i will note your opinion on the Lamm with such speakers , not the rotational science .
Regards
"No neophyte here, funny you think 250watts can work on an app, to over a 100db, so i will note your opinion on the Lamm with such speakers , not the rotational science ."
It can, Apogee said so and it was demonstrated in reviews by Martin Colloms and others. Not that I would usually listen that loud anyway...it is much too loud for sustained comfortable listening. I do think its funny that you are stuck in a Juvenile attitude regarding power and quality.
The best sound I got from Acoustats was with 30 watt KR Audio amps...right up to the point of clipping and yes it was quite audible when that limit was reached.
I think you seriously have no clue about psychoacoustics and distortion.
I will let you wallow in your ignorance of good sound and psychoacoustics and continue to let you have your high power bad sounding amps.
"I think you seriously have no clue about psychoacoustics and distortion."
He has no clue about a lot of things.......
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
Ahhh Birds of prey, Ozzy and Cab, i leave you two Jay's in ignorance, Lamms are no good and Reference 3a is SOTA ..
Carry on ...
No, my Odeons are SOTA the Ref 3as are just darned good bookshelf speakers.
The Grand Veena a toy speaker? Seriously?
Admittedly it's not in Wilson or Vivid Audio territory, but it is a serious design that does give the owner high performance.
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
I said reference 3a , you said Grand Vienna....
Reference 3A Grand Veena.
Do your homework before you proclaim......
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
You need to work on your reading comprehension ozzy , so let me go slowly, I said a recerence 3a is a toy , you said grand veena , i did not say grand veena was a toy speaker , yet you focus on the monikor error, semantics...
Resorting to Semantics is usually a sign of no game and limited intellect , if you plan to attack sharpen up and yes the system would not allow me to edit , for some reason not from mobile ..
So to clarify A reference 3a(monitor) is a toy and not something i would use to evaluate an amplifier to make an absolute statement like Cab ...
Regards ...
No YOU need to know what you are talking about before you open your big mouth.
The Grand Veena IS a Reference 3a speaker. The COMPANY name is Reference 3a. There is some disconnect between you and reality.
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
As the very happy owner of a (Used) pair of early Reference 3A Grand Veena speakers and a 40+ year experience in this hobby(obsession), I have rarely heard a better speaker and they always cost at least 3 times what these cost new. They have a nearly flat 5 ohm load and the Lamm wold coast driving them.
Edits: 12/02/14
I'm respectful of your position , so I'm very happy , you are very happy Jack :) , I did say Sota systems , i dont think anyone would call a ref3a a SOTA speaker ..
Regards ...
A speaker need not be "STATE OF THE ART" to make music and the 3A products definitely make music that escapes many pretenders, YMMV. The beauty of this "toy" speaker is that less really is more.
SOTA is another one of those non-musical terms that means what exactly?
Tooby,
I specified when i made that statement i was referring to Reference 3a stand mount monitors not the bigger floorstander as corrected in discussion, i have never heard those to comment on personally and also i have never heard of anyone referring to Reference 3a's as SOTA speakers ...
So forgive me ... :)
"i dont think anyone would call a ref3a a SOTA speaker .."
Maybe he didn't say SOTA, but Harry Pearson was impressed with the Grand Veena.
"Yes this is now and will be in the future considered a classic of it's kind. It is, purely and simply, a great loudspeaker".
So the "toy" comment was a little dramatic......
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
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