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85.19.92.6
Hi !
i would like to hear personal experiences from people who have replaced tube amps with solid state units in order to understand:
1) why ?
2) what they miss of tubes ?
3) what benefits they have gained instead ?
Please specify also the SS brands and models
Thanks a lot.
Kind regards,
bg
Follow Ups:
My newly acquired Sansui AU-517 amplifier makes me wonder why I should need all the tube stuff I accumulated during several years...
There are old jazz CDs, though, that sound better with some of my SE amps...
http://www.theaudioarchive.com/TAA_Resources_Tubes_versus_Solid_State.htm
After owning several tube amps (Cary, Jadis, Air Tight and Audio Research), I moved back to SS (Ayre AX-7).
Advantages of moving to SS: Same consistent sound (tube rolling can drive one nuts), cheaper to operate, better bass and dynamics, better PRAT).
What I miss about tubes: soundstage : ) better truth of timbre. Tube amps look cool.
Summary: I'm glad i moved back to SS about 10 years ago. With proper component, cabling , isolation and room treatment, I quite enjoy what I'm hearing. I'm more of a vinyl into SS than a digital into tube person (I know I can do vinyl into tubes but choose not to do so). I'm good with where I'm at. I don't want to be endlessly pursuing audio componenets rather than music.
Craig
I've added S/S after years with tubes, though the s/s gear I have is mostly vintage. Lessons learned:
1. Either can be really good... or not so good. The old SAE P250 and BGW amps would acquit themselves nicely, I think, against any amplifier, tube or s/s, today. Still, the Manley 120's, which are somewhat old-fashioned in having relatively high output impedance, are my main amps. (I use them for mids/highs only.)
"I heard x-amplifier, which is a highly rated tube amp, and I hated it, therefore s/s is better." We hear this often (or its inverse) and in either case it's nonsense.
2. Cost: tube gear and its maintenance tends to be more expensive, but not always. With vintage s/s gear you can easily end up with something requiring replacement transistors that are no longer available, as there were tens of thousands of different transistors used over the years. There are generally substitutes, but they are not always exact substitutes, so you may be into some modding in order to install them. Tube gear, on the other hand, almost always uses tubes from a list of a few dozen tube types that were commonly used. And of course replacing tubes is simpler than replacing transistors.
3. Euphonic tube sound: this really applies to vintage gear only, unless there is some outfit that is deliberately making new amps with lousy OPTs. My c-j MV75A1 was somewhat euphonic - it had realistic bass that went quite deep but was a little whumpy, and the top end was a little recessed. Still, it was musical, and paired the Sequerra Met 7-II's, could be astonishing. "The Wall" on that system was just frightening.
You can get great gear in either tube or s/s. It's out there. Choose one or the other if you like; I'll take both.
WW
"A man need merely light the filaments of his receiving set and the world's greatest artists will perform for him." Alfred N. Goldsmith, RCA, 1922
Yep ..... have both myself.... :)
I went from a Classe CP-50 pre and Odyssey Stratos amp to a Raysonic SP-66 tube integrated and back to the Odyssey Classe combo.
1. Good question. I'm still kicking myself for selling the Raysonic.
2. Everything. The Raysonic had so much more slam, weight, air, dynamics, natural vocals.
3. The Odyssey has a tighter low end, which IMO seems artificial so I would not call it a benefit after hearing the Raysonic. Also the Odyssey is rated at 150 watts per channel while the Raysonic is only rated at 50 watts per channel. Despite the power ratings, the Raysonic seemed more powerful and effortless.
Hi and thank you All sincerely
I have got so many valuble advice in a moment that i am under pressure at work so i cannot reply immediately to anyone.
I have to read first carefully anyone comments.
"Unfortunately", but i was expecting this, tubes are not dead at all
By the way i still would like to do without them at least in the output stages.
I will read about hybrid solutions for instance.
Hoping not to get the worst part of both technologies
Thanks a lot again.P.S. i feel that i will end with tube pre and SS power amp
I will have some gain issue i am sure ... but the result could be interesting
I like too much the tube midrange and the solid state bass
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 11/27/14
As was mentioned by others, I have gone back and forth between tubes and ss in both preamps and power amps.
Preamps in solid state included Hafler DH-110 and GAS Thalia, both of which were very nice with the edge going to the GAS which was slightly less dry sounding.
Tube preamps are a Dynaco PAS-3 and my current standard, an ARC SP-8. Both are nice-sounding preamps.
For Power amps in SS, I have had Dynaco ST-410, Hafler DH-220, which is a rather nice-sounding ss amp in my judgement and a very reasonably-priced one in the used market, a GAS Grandson when I had very efficient speakers and a Bryston 4B ST when I had inefficient ones.
In tubes, I have sampled Dynaco ST-70, Mk IIIs and my current fave, an ARC VT-100 Mk I.
Solid state amps can sound quite good. In fact, I keep my Hafler DH-220 for a spare if my main amp is on the fritz.
Happy Thanksgiving, and, as always, enjoy your music!
To sum up
Why - Too much heat with tubes
Ugly impedance speakers require SS
miss - nothing unless perception of liquidity (may only be perception)
gain - extremes of FR
lower electric bill
much punchier bass
easier system matching
Not sure my opinion matters since I use Bel Canto REF 1000s which are class D....
PeterZ
Class A SS amps generate as much heat. My NAT, which has a SS output stage, consumes around 800 watts!
Sigh!
Used tube stuff from CJ, VTL, and ARC. Sounded great when loaded with decent tubes and updated with fresh caps, etc. Bliss for a few years. I started to get equipment issues a few years later and decided to try solid state.
Sold of most of the tube stuff but did keep a CJ preamp with their Sonographe solid state amp for awhile. After trying in vain to get decent cathode follower tubes that would last in the preamp it was benched also along with the Sonographe. Gotta say this about the tube equipment,buy carefully and you'll get your money back on resale.
Got solid state replacements from Classe. (not their new stuff but the older "DR" series) Well, the soundstage was still there, the smooth treble and sweetness, I felt like I hadn't given up very much at all.
Granted, all this equipment (tube and ss) was from the mid to late 80's, but kept in good repair.
Try getting 2 integrated amps, one from each camp and listen. You'll know which one is right for you. If you have a trusted friend, have him (or her) switch amps while you're out of the room. You might be surprised.
Cheers!
Hearing is believing...and I never thought a SS amp would compare to the tube amps/preamps I've owned over the years, but after doing some research on SS amps used with Merlin speakers (notorious for their affinity to tubes) I stumbled upon the Neodio NR-600 Signature integrated amp, sourced in France. You will not find these often on the market - due to a paucity of dealers in the USA (as in NONE). However, if you do see a used one come up for sale, and you are truly curious to hear a SS amp that sounds like, no make that better, than most tube amps, then I suggest you give it a try. This amp has all the exalted tube attributes of the best modern tube amps, melded with the immediacy and accuracy often associated with Class A SS amps.
If 100 wpc is enough for your speakers, this amp will truly surprise you with its sound quality. I'm using mine with my Merlin VSM-MXe speakers and the latest Audience AU24 SE cables, with digits flowing from my Bel Canto 2.5 DAC via several source components - and even Pandora over my Grace internet tuner sounds palpable - no small feat! The tone is far "warmer" than any SS amp I've experienced, even when fed by a tubed preamp. The air is "there" as are all the spatial cues I used to think only possible from the likes of my BAT integrated amp (with tubed preamp section).
The driver behind this SS goodness may likely emanate from the "memory distortion-free" technology that began with the Lavardin amps. The overall parts quality is also stellar. Not saying that there aren't any tube amps out there that can better it - but if you're looking for a SS amp with tube-like qualities (including fatigue-free listening at all frequencies) you may find the Neodio a great choice. My amp has now been replaced in the Neodio line by the NR800 (also 100 wpc). They also offer a more powerful 150 wpc version, known as the NR1500, with the NR1500 Signature offering a few additional upgrades, such as a constrained layer cover for better isolation. For the foreseeable future, I see no reason to return to tubes - this after 25 years of Conrad Johnson, BAT, Bel Canto, Cary, Unison Research, Rogue, etc. Those were all GREAT amps - and so is the Neodio.
Great pic! DKL-
I want to hear the Neodio CD player!
Thanks Fantja - I'd like to hear their CD players too.. I've heard nothing but great things about them! Happy Thanksgiving.
D
Those who think that any SS can compete with really good tube amps are smoking crack! Why, just this evening I listened to my friend's system with a pair of very expensive LAMM M1.1 monoblocks that he borrowed from another mutual friend.
Now, my friend has over the years migrated further and further towards tubes until now his amplification is all tube (Einstein pre-amp and Octave monoblocks). Before going to tubes he had the quite highly rated McIntosh MC501 monos and a McIntosh SS preamp. This sounded soulless and musically dead. His speakers are Thiel CS3.7 or Cabasse Baltic Evolution + 2 REL Gibraltar G1 subs. Now with the all tube system it is neither warm nor fuzzy but it is very expansive and open and extended in the highs.
So, now we tried these LAMMs, which are hybrids, and while being a bit warmer than the Octaves (same EInstein preamp) they are missing that palpable almost holographic midrange that the Octaves and other good tube amps bring to his system. We have also had the VAC 30/30 and KR Audio VA350i on this system and got amazing good results with the Thiels, which reveal everything and can be somewhat analytical in nature. Bottom line, the LAMMS aren't BAD but they won't satisfy me as they do something unnatural in the end with the presentation of the sound. The tone is ok, but the imaging and soundstaging are not. Weird I know but once you hear how free and natural it can sound then you hear the artifice right away.
I TRIED to go back to hybrids; I had and loved a Sphinx Project 14 for years with a good tube preamp, recently going through an Einstein hybrid integrated and a NAT SINGLE ENDED hybrid (very rare breed). The NAT got really close to the best sound I have owned (KR Audio VA350i) but it is missing that bit of midrange magic that I now get from a JJ 322, which is a 300B amp. The LAMMS tonight reminded me of the NAT a bit but had even less magic. I blame the transistors because in the case of the NAT there is only ONE transistor per channel and no negative feedback. It is also Class A.
Going back to pure SS would be like driving a stake through the heart of music IMO, I haven't heard one in years that I could remotely live with. Don't believe the Disbeliever...he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about and this amp he raves about is likely a pretty threadbare sounding device.
Don't get me wrong, the NAT Symbiosis is one of the best amps I have ever heard...especially after about 2 hours of cooking on some music, but it just misses what makes the best tube amps truly special. It is buried somewhere in the dyanmic and tonal shading...something the transistors miss.
I like tubes , i like transistors , I must be mad ..... :)
So Basically you like Hybrids, yep .......
you are really dumb. I have both tube and hybrid amps.
Cab, sorry to hear your last lobotomy failed, get well soon .... :)
One of my amps has both. My DAC has none and my phonostage has one (MC stepup JFET). My amp has only 1 transistor per channel...that is enough.
So, for analog I have one transistor at the input and one transistor at the output and four tubes in between. For digital I have three tubes and then the output transistor and that is it.
If I use my other amp you can remove the transitor from the output and add another set of tubes (300B in parallel).
I haven't had an all SS amp in over a decade and everytime I hear one it makes me sure I don't want to go back. Same with Class D.
Octave Audio is the best tube gear I've heard to date, their power amps truly do have the drive, punch & control of solid state while sounding great, transparent as well. Unfortunately, they are expensive here in the U.S. An excellent example of tube gear that blows away all stereotypes.
Brad, whaddaya think of this beast? Heard it?
Not a fan of amplifiers current limiting at 4 ohm's , pretty thou ....
Yes, and in the context of an all Ypsilon system (transport, DAC and speakers) it was pretty stunning. Easily being in the top 10 best sounds at show I have heard.
Incredible build quality to go with a revealing but very harmonious sound.
If I had 16K euros to spend on an amp I would give it a serious consideration.
Have zero interest in ANY obese 77 lb. 110 wpc amp especially containing tubes price. $30K
Edits: 11/27/14 11/28/14 11/28/14
That is because you don't know what you don't know...
Fortunately I possess enough commonsense not to throw away $30K on an amplifier. "the nearest approach to the original sound " can be obtained for a lot lot less.
I agree you can't stereotype tube gear any more, and much of it varies in sound as much as solid state. Itdepends a lot on taste and system synergy.
I won't list everything I had but basically began with solid state, Krell, then did a radical 180 to Conrad Johnson, tube separates. I fell in love with the musicality of the CJ, it seemed to give the music soul. I was happy for years driving Dynaudio. I also have to mention the midrange was great and giving performers a human quality. How much of this you get in tubes depends on design and tube type. Then I switched to Revel F52 speakers, My 100 watt monoblocks pushed the F52's alright but I've heard them do better. Beware of what one change in a system might cause, LOL. So after trying a few solid state amps, the F52's love currrent, I put a vintage Threshold in the system and it was great which led me to try Pass, the amp was perfect, then I ended up getting the Pass preamp. I thought my CJ did alright with Rock but the control and dynamics of the Pass is greatly appreciated. The midrange is good but still lacks that degree of human factor the tubes provided. If any one finds the amp that does it all we'd all have one. The Pass is a nice fit for me but may have too many compromises for hard core tube lovers and may be too sweet for those who like the sledge hammer transients of Krell. So we can all provide our story and generalizations but you should do some listening if possible to as much gear as you can. My CJ may have done better with the Revel with a different amp that had more powerful output tubes, I was using EL34's which are one of the more lush tubes.
In addition to the Rogue you may want to look at Vincent Audio hybrid integrated amps. My friend uses them and they have a very strong bass response while still providing a tube like midrange. In solid state you might look at the Naim, they sound good in my opinion and have a lot of drive.
I suppose if the question were reversed and it was asked; How many moved from solid state to tubes that the responses generated would use up too much bandwidth.
I would venture to guess that more serious audiophiles (if your a regular on this site then your a serious audiophile, or at least take audio seriously) end up with at least a partially tube based, if not a exclusively tube based system than those that end with solid state.
Don't believe it? Take a look at the majority of reviewer(s) reference systems. Most reviewers have been in the game quite a while and most are tube heads.
In my view, going from mainly tubes to mainly solid state is akin to going from a 911 turbo to a Chevy Malibu......YMMV.
I was a vegetarian for 15 minutes, until the main course.......Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
*
"Your liver suffers dearly now for youthful magic moments...so rock on completely with some brand new components"
Some interesting responses so far.I presently own both. But the caveat to this is the circuitry and components that each employ.
I own both SS and Tube and it always comes down to the components and the terrain they are employed in. In the last 20 or so years, designers have recognized that the circuitry is most important - simpler is always better, and anyone who disagrees is referencing an older, slick and beguiling sound.
Some examples might be the Citation 2 or 5, Marantz 9 etc. Very nice, but not capable of SOTA. For SS the older Sony V-fet's etc. when restored, are not bad either. Take both, update and simplify the circuit path, and you have some serious challenges to what is State of the Art today, and in some cases even better.
What goes around, comes around with a little different view (if you take a large perspective on things).
Edits: 11/26/14
I have not owned amps with tubes, except for a pair of Lamm hybrid monoblocks (tubed input stage and mos-fet output stage).
I have however owned a number of pretty good SS amps and find that I appreciate the quiet background, dynamics, and solid bass that the better SS amps offer. The Class A, SS Clayton monoblocks I owned rivaled the Lamm Hybrids in the midrange. My current SMc amp is an excellent sounding amplifier and very musical. I am sure the Pass amps are good, or even great, but there are many other really good amps out there, as others have pointed out.
If you want the simplicity and quiet of SS, but also a midrange with some tube-like warmth/dimensionality/dense tonality qualities, I suggest you consider trying a Class D amplifier using the Ncore NC1200 technology. I can point you in the direction of an in-home audition, if you are interested, or you can research them on your own. There are several manufacturers using this technology, some using the stock SMPS power supply, and others (Theta) who have come up with linear supplies. I think it would be worth a listen for you, if those are in your price range.
Good luck.
...with my Thiel 7.2s I was using Manley Reference 350 tubed amps and wanted to switch to solid state for the simplicity in putting together my last system.
After much research, I bought a Pass X-350 and thought it was the best solid state amp I'd heard with these speakers.
Rich midrange, tighter bass and great dynamic contrasts.
After a month or so I began hearing a grainy texture in the upper midrange and I couldn't live with it.
So I bought the newer version of the Manleys, the Neo Classic 250s.
Here was everything the Pass did with better imaging, a more open, cleaner sound and a relaxed musicality that the Pass lacked.
I've never looked back, but have wondered from time to time how the X-350.5 would have sounded - people tell me it's a big improvement over the 350.
A lot of it has to do with matching to your particular speakers and what you value in the sonic presentation.
only I held onto the SS for a whole year, hoping it was just me. Back to tubes, and back to just listening to music.
Jeremy
On a smaller scale, I had the X150 and the X150.5. The X150.5 was more refined and smoother sounding. Coupled to the Cary SLP-05 tube linestage, it was a wonderful sounding setup.... with my Tannoy speakers. I tried with the Thiel CS2.4 and it was slightly under powered. The X250.5 or X350.5 would have been a better match.
However, I too have owned a pair of Manley Neo-Classic 250 amps and they were a match made in heaven with my Thiel speakers (the CS2.4 in my case). As you know, I tried to find a pair of solid-state amps to replace the Neo-Classic 250 and the closest I got were a pair of Ampzilla 2000 2nd Edition monoblocks. Very nice sounding amps!
I also tried W4S SX-500 Class D mono blocks which lasted about a month in my system before I sold them. Same for a pair of large Bryston 7BSST2 Class AB amps. These were a couple of the worse amps I've owned right up there with the Krell KSA-2250 in terms of being lean and sterile. The Brytons were smoother than the Krell though. That Krell was harsh!
To make a long story just a little longer... I found that the Rogue Cronus Magnum integrated tube amp does a great job for me especially now that I'm in a smaller listening room.
I tried too.... but I seem to end up favoring tube gear.
Abe, you said, "I also tried W4S SX-500 Class D mono blocks which lasted about a month in my system before I sold them. Same for a pair of large Bryston 7BSST2 Class AB amps. These were a couple of the worse amps I've owned right up there with the Krell KSA-2250 in terms of being lean and sterile. The Brytons were smoother than the Krell though. That Krell was harsh!"
The Krell is not even worth discussing.
But about those W4S amps, let me guess. Did they seem brittle, overly bright, in-your-face detail, forward soundstage? So unmusical that you couldn't wait to take them out of your system and put something, anything else in just for a little musical relief?
But about those W4S amps, let me guess. Did they seem brittle, overly bright, in-your-face detail, forward soundstage? So unmusical that you couldn't wait to take them out of your system and put something, anything else in just for a little musical relief?
No. Actually, I would take the W4S SX-500 Class D amps over the Krell KAV-2250 or Brystons any day! They weren't that bad sounding. They were OK but compared to other 'traditional' amps I've had whether solid-state or tube, the SX500 were lacking in bass detail. The bass was there, a little rounded, but also lacking definition. In other words, ever so slightly monotonic and noticeably inferior in their ability to separate the very lowest of bass notes.... as in the large upright bass instrument, as an example.
They were a little forward but nothing horrible and they couldn't match my tube amps in creating that almost holographic soundstage.
...having heard a lot of amps both tubed and ss, I have come to a conclusion.
Neither are completely accurate and both have distortion.
Some people (like me and maybe you) are more sensitive to the distortions of the ss amps and others are more sensitive to the tubed distortions.
Although matching with your speakers also plays a part, perhaps emphasizing some of the inherent distortion products.
about individual sensitivity to distortions.I believe anyone on the fence between tubes and SS must listen for themselves. Comments here, no matter how well intentioned, will not give the full story.
"You can’t know what the “best” is unless you have heard everything, and keep in mind that given individual tastes, there really isn’t any such thing." HP
Edits: 11/27/14
I am lucky enough - or crazy enough to have systems with both-
My main rig is Vacuum tube based
but my secondary rigs are SS: Parasound, Luxman, Linn
I like both.
Do I have a Preference - Yes - Tubes
do I spend lots of time listening to the SS gear? - Yes
Caveat:
I do not Roll Tubes.
I have not upgraded much of my systems - except to add to them.
I have tried to match different amps/speakers/pre-amps - and I have found that I prefer what I have, the way it is currently set up.
Each system has a different sound - and that is good.
Happy Listening
I've moved from solid-state to tubes to solid-state to tubes to solid-state to tubes...... many many times.You should experience a good tube amp yourself and ignore the outdated tube-o-phobic rantings by those who haven't used tube equipment in 30 years.
I've owned several tube and solid-state amps over the years. In general, I prefer tubes. But that's not to say I haven't had excellent sounding solid-state systems. It's all a matter of personal preference so do yourself a favor and try both!
Like anything else there's good tube gear and there's not so good. Same for solid-state. If you go out and buy some bargain basement tube amp made of recycled beer cans off eBay and expect it to sound great and last a decade or more, you're just asking for trouble.
Tube Amps that I have owned since about 1998 are listed below. The only 'antique sounding' amp with flabby bass was the Cary 45 SET mono blocks and that was mainly due to very low power output and mismatch for my real world speakers.
Conrad-Johnson Premier 11A : 70wpc
AES/Cary SixPac mono blocks : 60wpc
Cary Audio "Rocket 88 : 40wpc
Cary Audio 45 SET mono blocks : 3wpc
Cary Audio CAD-120S : 120wpc
Cary Audio Xciter integrated : 5wpc
Audio Research VT50 : 45wpc
Audio Research VT100mkII : 100wpc
Manley Neo-Classic 250 mono blocks : 250wpc
Rogue Stereo 90 Super Magnum : 100wpc
*Rogue Cronus Magnum Integrated : 100wpc
*Audio Research VSi-60 Integrated: 50wpc*Presently own.
In my opinion, one of the best values in a quality tube integrated amp is the Rogue Cronus Magnum with KT120 tubes. $2295 MSRP but you can find them in the $1500 - $1800 range used in excellent condition.
My Setup Comparing Two Tube Integrated Amps
And My Setup for easily swapping between Solid-State & Tubes
Some solid-state amps that I've owned over the years. I'm sure I'm forgetting a couple.
Classe 10 : 100wpc
Classe CA-100 : 100wpc
Classe CA-200 : 100wpc
Classe CA-300 : 300wpc
Conrad-Johnson MF2250A : 120wpc
Pass Labs Aleph 3 : 30wpc
Pass Labs Aleph 30 : 30wpc
BAT VK200 : 100wpc
Krell KSA-50S : 50wpc
Krell 2250 : 250wpc
Mark Levinson 383 Integrated : 100wpc
NuForce Ref 9v2 : 150wpc
Odyssey Stratos Extreme : 180wpc
Pass Labs X150 : 150wpc
Pass Labs X150.5 : 150wpc
Pass Labs INT-150 Integrated : 150wpc
Bel Canto M300 mono blocks : 150wpc
PS Audio HCA-2 : 150wpc
Wyred4Sound SX-500 mono blocks : 250wpc
Bryston 7BSST2 mono blocks : 600wpc
Ampzilla 2000 2nd Edition mono blocks : 300wpc
Marantz PM-8003 Integrated : 70wpc
Sony TA-A1ES Integrated : 80wpc
Edits: 11/26/14
Are you a dealer? This is impressive and crazy at the same time! :- )
I went from SS to tubes, back to SS, then back to tubes......
Beautiful pics Abe!
nt
.
You are the MAN, Abe!
I will add-
from a music lover's perspective (me), I like electric guitar and electric bass- solid-state will give better dynamics to these instruments.
The best SS at this juncture, is hands down, Pass Labs.
Hi and thanks for the reply
No doubt about the quality of Pass Labs designs
I wonder if for SS good implies necessarily expensive
I am also looking at hybrid units, with valves before a SS output
Could this be a nice compromise ?
Kind regards,
bg
Yes, for not too much money you could find yourself a good Sphinx Project 14 (dutch made amp and an excellent bargain now). This amp sounds great and will cost you about 1000 euro used. Another good choice would be from Italy, the Pathos Classic one...also for about the same price. Both sound better than comparable price-wise SS amps (I would argue the Sphinx sounds better than ANY SS amp I have heard).
Odyssey Stratos amps are a good value in solid-state gear. They are not up there with Pass Labs in terms of build quality or sonics but they sound very nice..... slightly warm and smooth. They need to be left powered ON to sound their best but they don't draw much idle power, about 75 watts from what I recall measuring and they don't run hot.
Even though Pass Labs makes outstanding amps, I didn't care too much for their INT-150 integrated amp. It didn't have the same big dynamics and punch as their separates. This may be due to it's passive linestage section.
Pass Labs is outstanding SS gear, no question.
I do think Electrocompaniet gear sounds better than Pass Labs. It's enough of a difference to be fairly noticeable. The low level detail is better defined, slightly improved 3D, and a midrange that is simply breathtaking with the right speakers.
Can't go wrong either way.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Right On! Freo-1
and best of all these 2 brands are sonic matches for my fave loudspeakers, Thiel!
You really don't see Electrocompaniet mentioned often these days.
When I lived in Illinois, my living room system was a pair of B&W 805 Nautilus driven by an Electrocompaniet ECI-4 (with bass supplemented by a Von Schweikert subwoofer).
That system was INCREDIBLY musical, and seemed to be able to do everything well - no matter what the genre. Was pretty killer for home theater use as well.
I had bought a pr of Manley Snapper tube amps. They are great sounding and very reliable amps.
I switched back to SS, PASS X250.5
1)It has more power and drives my speakers better, also sounds a little better by having a blacker background
2)Tube rolling getting different sounds out of different tubes
3)No more biasing tubes (I did it monthly, it was very easy) I checked it even if I didn't have to adjust. I believe in the long run cost (Not having to buy tubes) and again better control on my speakers.
These amps retail for around the same price
Hi and thank you very much for the interesting experience.
I have a friend who bought a British power amp
I think it came with chinese tubes and then he decided to buy big expensive tubes and it was the beginning of a nightmare
Now he uses a SS Audible Illusions s120 i think. Nice amp.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg
I moved from antique colored sounding distorting troublesome tubes some 30 years ago and have never looked back I would not touch a hot tube amp with a barge pole. SS started with modified Quad Hafler APT & various custom made Borberly designs amps, now using the excellent sound & value Rotel 1552 Mk2 power amp fed from the pre-out of the also excellent Sony AVR STR-DA5400ES (UK version) .
Edits: 11/25/14 11/25/14 02/19/15
"antique colored sounding distorting troublesome tubes some 30 years ago"
Pay attention class, there might be a test.
Here is a guy who is stuck in the past. Properly designed tube equipment hasn't sounded that way for many years. The last tube amp I heard that remotely sounded "colored" was a Marantz 7B. Even though it wasn't by far the best amp I have heard, I would take it over lesser SS designs any day.
But this guy, yeah this guy is still living in 1950. Which is a good thing, it means more tubes out there for me...........
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
Actually probably gave up after listening to a Dyna ST70; I know I would. That said, I would like to know what a 7B looked like. The is the 7, 7C and 7T so must have been a 7B but, never seen one.
All the hype about tubes being antiques, having to be replaced all the time, etc. is hogwash. Some tube units do run the tubes hard and on the edge, requiring changes every 4-5 years. Others run them very conservatively and the rules are still wrong after some 50 years. Go back to the early ss years and see how fragile and failure prone those germanium transistors were and try and find nos or nib stock today. Same with newer mosfets, jfets, ICs, STKs. Following threads shows there are more persons trying to figure out how to source modern replacement devices because original replacements are not available or knockoffs that do not work. You can still find almost any tube going back to the days of the caveman but, may cost. More popular audio tubes are being made again and that list is growing. Also, if someone wants to go to another tube, there are others from direct fits to will work but the socket needs rewiring or with some circuit change an entirely different tube will work as well or better.
The truth be told, a tube amp, preamp, etc. is easier to fix, generally parts more easily obtained and as reliable or more than ss gear. Yes, with vintage tube units, it usually requires some upfront investment to get to a reliable daily driver but, this holds true even of older ss units. Caps, resistors do not discriminate.
Having said that I did finally cycle out of my tube systems after decades running it along side my SS systems. It was a decision more related to my age and future travel down the road of life than anything else. As for improvement, nothing. As for loss, definitely not, tolerable and acceptable for my future needs and wants. The last tube system sold was my Sherwood S3300IV tuner and S5000II. The replacement permanent system was a Sherwood S9500c amp and S3300 tuner, their 1st gen units. Differences in sound satisfaction is zip, nada. Sherwood did an excellent job with their tube units and needed little or no voicing of their SS to emulate the older units. The tube units are closer to what we call a modern tube sound than the older classic tube sound many think are poor sounding while most of my crowd finds better than the harsh,.sterile, emotionless, uninvolving transitory sound from the early ss days. As for new ss, I can not find a really good sounding unit that is reliable, well engineered, well built, not even the new McIntosh. I doubt I could today buy something like the old Sherwood units or McIntosh and 50 years later still have it running. Of course, I will be long gone so long term reliability is no longer as near the top of my list as it was when I was 22.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
The only thing worse than a new tube amp is a secondhand one. .
I have been wracking my brain trying to come up with a response to your post that is articulate, thought provoking, and gentile. After all this speculation I can only come to one conclusion.
You are an idiot.
Sorry, but that is the only response that fits the situation. I wish I could offer you more, but I think you will understand completely.
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
"antique colored sounding distorting troublesome tubes some 30 years ago"
I was thinking the same thing Ozzy . I've running both solid-state and tubes for the past 20 years and have never heard what Disbeliever describes in tube gear.
The whole tubes vs solid-state debate is a bit silly because the only reason not to try good tube gear is because of this unwarranted 'Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt' (FUD) perpetuated by someone who hasn't had tube equipment in 30 years.
For disagreement? I'd say there ARE tube designs today that are MEANT to have every quality Disbeliever disdains.
Me? I have one system using tube amps that are 20+ years old. They have an almost silent background, have incredible dynamics, and some pretty killer bass (with my Gallo Nucleus Reference 3s).
Also have a system at home using whatever solid state thingy my wife had, driving a pair of B&W 805 Matrix. It does OK, but the noise floor is higher than with my tube setup, and the 805s REALLY shine with my tube amps (VTL Deluxe 120 monoblocs).
Previously? Had a GREAT SS system with B&W 805 Nautilus driven by an Electrocompaniet integrated & a sub. That did EVERYTHING well.
Wake up, tubes are still antiques with many issues as another poster has pointed out.
And? The transistor is now an antique as well...get over it. The 300B triode is still one of the most linear amplifying devices man has invented...far more so than any transistor so far invented...facts not prejudices!
Hi and thanks for the kind and valuable reply
I have this midrange obsession and tubes are said to be maybe limited in bandwidth but with a really well "developed" midrange
I know that not all SS is hard and harsh and thanks for the interesting suggestion (nice amp the JOB indeed).
But i was thinking more to an integrated solution ... i do not need much watts but strong control in the bass because i do not like rounded/soft bass. The usual iron fist in a velvet glove.
Not that common i am afraid with SS equipment.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg
At the beginning of 2014 I went back to a tube amp (Rogue Audio 100) and couldn't be happier. I had the Rogue Stereo 90 and it had a ground hum issue I couldn't resolve. I tried an Emotiva amp but was never quite happy with it. Tube biasing and maintenance are bogus issues as far as I am concerned. Power tubes should last many years and biasing isn't that big of a deal.
Sure, there are many fine SS amps out there. If that is your goal, go for it. Since purchasing my first tube amp, the sound has never disappointed me.
I do use a Cary CAD-200 SS amp that might meet some of your desired attributes. Great mids, easy top end (my speakers hate amps with high end sizzle) and dynamic but very controlled bass. Reasonably priced on the used market.
Hi and thanks for the valuable suggestion
It is that with the average SS the midrange tends to sound a little flat and average digital goes in the same direction with the global sound a little hard on the ears.
But i like the practicality of SS units.
Kind regards,
bg
Both mid-range & bass control are excellent with the JOB 225, so good in fact that a pair of speakers I was intending to sell I am now keeping, the JOB is the most natural sounding & transparent amplifier that I have used so far.
Hi and thanks again.
I understand is coming from Goldmund Audio ?
Nice amp indeed but i am simplifying my set up and i would prefer an integrated. I am looking also to hybrid amps with SS outputs.
Kind regards,
bg
I would also recommend that you avoid Hybrids half antique, how much is your budget for an integrated ? Job now have a pre-amp.
I own both. I'm much more into tubes because tube rolling is so much fun and you can tailor to find your 'flavor'. Can't really do that with SS unless you're modding some insides. BUT, for thumping fast rock, metal and dance and HT, it's SS all the way.
I would say that for accurate realistic Classical music it is SS all the way.
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