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In Reply to: RE: recommendation posted by rws on November 08, 2014 at 07:42:34
Available fully assembled and within your budget.
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Years, actually decades ago when I had my Dynaco collection, I had both a nib factory built and kit versions of the SCA35. I had the factory one checked by a tech who tested and confirmed it easily met and exceeded the published specs. Sound wise it was quite decent. I preferred it to my bone stock ST70 and PAS3x combo.
I took the kit and decided to strip the boards and while using the unit upgrade items like the controls and I also built discrete circuits of each PEC. I subbed in metal film 1-5% resistors, each 1 higher wattage rating than the original and new and better caps. In the past I increased the filter caps but not by much. I replaced the original bass, treble and volume controls with new more closely matched ganged controls. The tone controls were individually tested until I found ones that at the null point, both gangs were at about +- .1 db. The originals though in theory were supposed to null were so far off they did not. Same with the volume control where I used a ganged but separated inner and outer shafts, eliminating the need for the balance control which I bypassed. I do hate balance controls.
The selector switch was left stock, at the time I could not find a decent replacement. All wiring was mylar coated silverplated either single strand or multi. From the jack set to the selector all wires were shielded and run through a copper flexitube. The power transformer was encased in what I called a poor man's Faraday case. The jacket was replaced with better jacks, not gold as at the time these were not in vogue. The loudness contour circuit was eliminated as I never use it.
The tone controls were checked through a scope and the null points were marked on the faceplate.
The amp was checked by the same tech who did the factory unit using the same equipment and tests. The resulting specs were far better. Both units had the original nib tubeset. We then tested them on an agreed to set of speakers, My back then fairly new W70D Wharfedales. We used the same input source, a Crown HS 2-track deck and Garrard 301, can not remember the arm or cartridge.
After a number of good between the amp's using a patch cord switcher but no blind testing we both decided the kit as updated clearly sounded very noticeably better. It was the tech who laid the seeds of the idea of using a separate chassis for the power supply but, I never got to it. As it was, this SCA was the last tube amp I kept long after disposing of all my tube units around 2000. I finally sold it a couple of years ago. I had a couple of thousand hours on it and the original tubes were still huffing and puffing away nicely.
I think the biggest failings of the Dynaco products their choice of components. They invested in the opts and circuit design but then cut the corners everywhere else to meet their targeted pricepoint. Sadly, this seemed to be David's failing in all his products throughout his career.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
Fortunately, today better quality parts are readily available, and in use, that bring out the potential of the SCA-35 - or so I would expect, based upon my experiences with other classic Dynaco circuits as well as from my acquaintance with an extensive Dynaco support network.
Edits: 11/13/14 11/13/14
But I didn't see the SCA-35 available "fully assembled" (or even as a kit) from either Dynakitparts or Tubes4hifi. I'm not suggesting you're wrong, simply that I couldn't find one.
One word of caution to the original poster. I agree with Petercapo that an SCA-35 might be an amp to consider, albeit with two caveats. The first, and most important one, is that nobody produces the 7199 input tube any longer, and replacements can be very expensive. That's the reason I searched for the fully assembled SCA-35 link. I wanted to see what input tubes they were using now.
The second is that if you do decide to go with a SCA-35 (or ST-35), I'd consider Dave Gillespie's EFB modification mandatory . Not only does it run the output tubes much easier, it also made a rather substantial improvement to the sound of my SCA-35. For about $5 in parts, it transformed what I always considered Dynaco's worst sounding tube amp, to a very musical contender.
Both tubes are identical except for the pin out.
My concern was the overall height of some of them, and whether or not they would fit under the SCA-35s cage. This wouldn't be an issue in a stock Stereo 70, but could be with a lower cage. I did contact an ebay seller, who said he could make a lower version, should I need it.
There are those who claim the sound of the 6GH8A doesn't match the 7199, but since I've never heard an amp that used them, I can't comment.
Thanks for the reminder about the adapters.
Thanks for reminding us of this, airtime. I had forgotten. I believe it is available from other sources as well, such as Kevin at Dynakitparts.
I think its over on the vintage or tube posting group.
seems ok to me
charles
To obtain a brand new, fully assembled SCA-35, one would need to ask Sal Brisindi, who is listed as an authorized service provider on the Dynakitparts website. If by chance Sal is not building them, you could also contact Roy Mottram at tubes4hifi, who I understood offers them. AFAIK, I think one or both of them should be willing to provide a fully assembled SCA-35, unless they have decided not to do them, after all. Here are links that would be worth reading through and might be of help:http://www.dynakitparts.com/links
http://www.tubes4hifi.com/SCA35-2014.htm
As far as the 7199 driver tube, yes, it is worth asking about. 7199s can still be obtained and the prices are getting higher I'm sure. But, given that an SCA-35 is well within the OPs budget, the 7199 board is a viable option. NOS 7199 are not nearly as expensive as the 300B tubes in the Cary integrated the OP is also considering.
But, I think some of the boards available in the new reissue SCA-35 might use a substitute tube that is less expensive and more readily available than the 7199 – you'd need to inquire with Sal or Roy. You could also ask Kevin Devaney about it, who owns Dynakitparts.
With regard to the EFB, it is a very popular option, and I think Roy Mottram builds them into his new SCA-35. As far as the EFB being mandatory, this is something I will respectfully disagree with. 1973shovel, I don't know what the situation might have been with your SCA-35 before the EFB mod, but I have the Dynakitparts Stereo 35 that is the same power amp as in the SCA-35, and it sounds really good even without the EFB. I've read many commentaries over the years by folks who think the Stereo 35/SCA-35 is actually the best sounding amp Dynaco ever made. I suspect that in many cases where I read folks saying they think their original Dynaco sounds bad might just mean that it isn't in peak operating condition – remember that originals have a lot of years on them.
That being said, Dave Gillespie seems like a great guy and along with accomplishing the EFB for the ST35/SCA-35, he has written an unbiased vindication of the classic Stereo 70, as well:
http://www.audioregenesis.com/documents/ST-70%20Base%20Line%20Testing.pdf
Yes, the EFB is very popular and certainly worth looking into, but IMO not "mandatory."
Edits: 11/09/14 11/09/14 11/09/14 11/09/14 11/09/14
I have read similar reports about the ST-35 being Dynaco's best sounding amp, and I agree with that opinion. I'd attribute that to the 7247 input stage, along with the excellent Z-565 output transformers. I have never read the same thing said about the sound quality of SCA-35 though. Again, I'm not saying it has never been said, only that I've never read or heard that.
"I have the Dynakitparts Stereo 35 that is the same power amp as in the SCA-35"
I think this is where I will also respectfully disagree with you. The two amps use the same output tubes, and output transformers, but that is where the similarity ends. The ST-35 uses the very good sounding 7247 tube, while the SCA-35 uses the 7199 in a different circuit topology, as you know.
If I went to the Dynaco Forum and told Roy and Bob that their VTA ST-70 was the same amp as a stock 1965 Dynaco ST-70 because it uses the same output tubes and output transformers, do you think they'd agree with me? The VTA (which I own) uses 12AU7s with a different circuit than a ST-70 with 7199s, and sounds quite different.
My point is that your ST-35 is an excellent sounding amp (yes, even without the EFB) but the SCA-35 was not to my liking at all.
As to the condition of my SCA-35, it was bench tested to spec prior to me buying it from a friend of mine, who had two of them. We tried both of them on a variety of speakers, including Altec 604s, original Quads, Advents, NHT SuperZeros, etc. Our consensus was that using either SCA-35 sounded like a wet blanket had been thrown over the speakers.
I tried many mods, including disconnecting the tone controls, upgrading the coupling caps, upgrading the power supply caps, etc. Nothing I did made me like the amp any better, and I put it on a shelf for many years. If anyone's curious why I bought it in the first place, it was for the output transformers. I always intended to turn it into a ST-35 eventually, but found another pair of Z-565 transformers to use for that project.
I started reading about the EFB mod, and figured I had nothing to lose, given that it was about $5 worth of parts to try it. I've posted elsewhere that the EFB took the SCA-35 from boring to musical. I now rotate it into my system on a regular basis. That's why I said the EFB was "mandatory". Given that it offers longer output tube life and greatly improved sound for a few dollars, why not?
My intent in posting certainly wasn't to disagree with you. It was with the concern that the original poster might not be aware that the 7199 tube is rather scarce and getting expensive. So is the 7247, for that matter. The difference being, the 7247s are worth it!
You piqued my curiosity, so I pulled up the schematics for the Stereo 35 and the SCA-35. The power amp sections seem pretty similar between the two, with the phase inverter topology the same as far as I can see – a form of cathodyne phase inverter in both cases, correct?A difference is that the first section of the 7247 uses a straight triode that I believe is for some voltage gain (or is it more of a buffering role?), while the first section of the 7199 is a pentode used for the same purpose, though in the SCA-35 schematic it looks like the 7199 is hooked up in a way that does not use all five electrodes, rather, it looks like it is running in some sort of triode mode(?) with the screen grid connected in some kind of feedback, no?
So, the first section of the 7199 has some differences in the associated circuitry, but this looks to be just what was needed to accommodate the inherent operating characteristics of the first section of the 7199 vs. the first section of the 7247. There are also some differences in the feedback schemes, but the distortion specs are very close – I don't think I could tell the difference between 0.1% and 0.2% IMD "at average listening levels."
I confess that I am not an engineer, but these two circuits look far closer to each other than the difference between the original Stereo 70 two-tube gain plus cathodyne phase inverter vs. the three-tube gain plus long tail inverter Roy uses in his Stereo 70 circuit.
Edits: 11/09/14 11/09/14
Nor am I, not even close.
Now is as good a time as any to say that I follow your posts, both here on the Dynaco Asylum, and at the Dynaco tube audio forum. I always enjoy reading what you write. My point being, you seem to know your way around a tube amp, and are willing to help others.
That being said, and admitting once again that I'm not an engineer, I'm going to switch to subjectivity here. It has been my experience that a ST-35 is a better sounding amplifier than a SCA-35. As to the "why" of that, I'll leave up to those more technically qualified to explain. I've always been told (and read) that it was due to the 7247 being a better sounding tube than the 7199.
I wish the original poster good luck in finding what you are looking for. I didn't intend to take your post off topic.
Thank you, and I appreciate the discussion.
Best regards,
Peter
That is all perfectly fine. Disagreements are okay, too.
I remember reading some of your posts related to your SCA-35. I was and am still kind of surprised that in spite of everything you did it still didn't sound good (until you added the EFB). I rebuilt one a long time ago (no EFB) and remember it sounding transparent enough. Go figure.
In any case, I had suggested to the OP that if he buys an old one that it would likely need rebuilding. I am sure if he sends it to Sal or Roy that he would get back a pretty good sounding amp, hopefully something in line with his taste.
The SCA-35 was a nice little integrated amp. Cost and budget conscience kit for those that wanted a little tube amp, but didn't want to spend a bundle.
But in the big picture the SCA-35 was simply a nice, not great, but fair amp. If the original poster is going to spend a grand on this, I think he would get a much bigger bang for the buck by stepping up to the (new) ST-70 kit.
If he wants to at a later date he can find or build a PAS. I don't remember if he needs vinyl? But the PAS properly upgraded was a very nice preamp.
And besides, the ST-70 sounds just great with a passive attenuator. I used one for years. Lordy I miss that amp!!!!!!!!!!!!!
charles
the dyna sc35 is a interesting idea, if I find a original about how much to have it rebuilt would you guess?
A used one will go for something like $150 to around $400 depending on condition. A rebuild, which may likely be needed for it to meet its potential, would cost, I don't know, maybe a few hundred more depending on what you have done and the quality of the parts.Though it is an option, it might or might not make financial sense to buy an original and then send it out to get rebuilt. If you rebuild it yourself, that's another matter, I suppose. Last I knew, I think you can get a brand new one for around $1,000. I have a Stereo 35, which is basically the same power amp section as the SCA-35, and it sounds great.
I suggest inquiring with different places. For example, you could ask Joe Curcio for a price to rebuild an original. Or, you could contact Sal Brisindi, who builds the new Dynakit. There is also Roy Mottram at tubes4hifi, who I think sells a fully assembled, new SCA-35. Either way, as long as it is up and running properly, it should be a great-sounding little integrated on a par with most anything else near that price range and higher. Not a lot of power, but your speakers are efficient.
Another great thing about the Dynacos is that there is a ton of support and documentation available.
Edits: 11/08/14
Thanks, I will check into that
the 35 is actually a very nice little amp. It uses one of the sweetest and best sounding output tubes. The humble for great sounding EL84. I'm a big fan of those tubes.The amp/preamp is basically a very simple unit. All you would need to do is replace a few capacitors and upgrade a few coupling caps. Also I would replace some of the power resistors. Otherwise a VERY simple and easy rebuild.
If you want to start ripping into it and modding it, there are plenty of kits and boards available. However I would be VERYYYYY careful not to upgrade it to death. If you get my point.
And if you go this route you can post over at the tube forum. A fun and great bunch of guys.
charles
Edits: 11/08/14
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