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In Reply to: RE: Ooo - dry and lean - get me some too. posted by airtime on November 06, 2014 at 06:21:49
upper bass too sounds less fleshed out than real life (that region around 100Hz or so).
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Morricab,
I've heard the Soulution amplifiers in 4 systems each using different speakers and the overall sound struck me just as you described, lifeless, dry and un involving. I do recognize that we all hear differently and prefer various types of sound presentation. The high quality SET amplifiers that I find marvelously natural and realistic won't impress certain types of listeners. I'm just happy that we have choices.
If you really want to buy solid state and you can afford it buy F.M acoustics. There gear really sounds great without all the hype. The only problem is there is only one dealer in the States for it. I think they are in Colorado.
I'll throw in another one: Electrocompaniet. Their equipment sounds outstanding. Depth, detail, life like, you name it.
Match up a Elecctrocompaniet setup with ATC speakers, and it is a near perfect match. To me, it's the best SS gear I have heard to date.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
I heard Electrocompaniet Nemos get DESTROYED by a "humble" KR Audio VA350i on a pair of big JMLAB Grande Utopia BE EM (the ones with electromagnetic bass damping). It was a bad showing for the old Electrocompaniet. I heard a similar drubbing of Electrocompaniet (this time and AW250 I think) with KR at a guy with Acapella Violon speakers.
IMO, EC doesn't sound very good at all from the two examples I have from above.
Your assessment is out to lunch. The problems you heard had NOTHING to do with the Electrocompaniet amp. The EC gear is one of very few solid state gear that gets it right. Although I listen to tubes more than SS, EC gear is among the very best SS I have heard.
I have a a ECC-1, EC 4.7 preamp, and a AW2-120 power amp. It easily surpassed the Pass Labs gear I used to own in just about every possible measure. I have it connected to ATC speakers with the Super Linear drivers, and I can tell the readers that the combination is truly outstanding. The depth, detail, 3D, and accuracy are stunning. There are some recordings that one would almost swear that the listener is in the studio hearing the performance. Very few amps (especially solid state ones) can provide that illusion.
I have run into audiophiles who eschew accuracy for a euphonic presentation (especially ones who favorite recordings are severely compromised/compressed). The EC/ATC combo exposes the the recording/source for what it is, be it good or bad.
I don't always listen to SS gear, but when I do, I listen to Electrocompaniet.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Oh, it had everything to do with the electrocompaniet gear as that was the only piece of the puzzle that was replaced with both systems. Given that the Electrocompaniet amps are SS with a decent damping factor, you can't really say it was due to lack of power or drive capability. Compatibility should have been high. Sound, sadly, was cold and relatively sterile. The dealer who swapped in the KR for his Nemos was stunned to say the least (it was clear he was not that happy with them to begin with though because he was also playing around with some cheapish Prima Luna amps on the huge JM lab speakers).
I have heard the Electrocompaniet gear enough times with different speakers to know that it works outstanding in the vast majority of applications. A fellow inmate over on another site has been raving about his AW-180 amps with Salk Exoctia speakers. He has nothing but positive things to say, and cannot any fault find fault whatsoever with the amps.
The ATC speakers with the SL driver are among the most accurate sounding available. The EC setup sounds incredible with ATC. As I said, some of the recordings sound almost like one is in the studio with the EC CD/Pre/Power setup. Makes no sense that it it would sound anything but great.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
"Makes no sense that it it would sound anything but great. "
Why would that be the case? Of course it can sound anything but great.
Don't like ATC speakers either...a bit dead and lifeless unless you pump them up...Would much rather listen to a good ribbon, electrostat or horn speaker instead of another boring speaker claiming to be accurate. I am quite sure now that your definition of incredible sounding and mine are far apart. Mine can be compared only with what I hear live and so far only one or two systems have approached that (one cost the better part of a million bucks).
Seriously, if you want to compare them to the best gear out there they will fail. If you want to compare them to other, overhyped SS, then they might be comparable...at least they aren't so mad expensive.
Well, I also compare gear to what I hear live as well. My live reference is mainly classical and jazz music. Based on your response, I now have to wonder if you have a fair amount of high frequency hearing loss (even more than most middle aged males). Not saying that is the case, but, based on your preferences, that could be inferred. IMHO, Most horns are ear bleeders, many ribbons are pretty zippy, and ESL's can sound very dull.ATC's are one of a very few speakers that can reproduce the entire frequency spectrum ACCURATELY. They also can provide superior dynamic contrast without breakup/distortion. There is a very good reason ATC's are in so many studios. However , they are not euphonic, which sounds like that is what you are after.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Edits: 11/11/14
I can see that your powers of analysis are lacking. I was tested a couple of years ago and can hear just fine to around 18Khz. Your implication that the gear I own has tipped up highs is also way off. Although, with the amps I am using one could perhaps accuse my system of being rolled off in the highs...that would also be false, however.
"Most horns are ear bleeders, many ribbons are pretty zippy, and ESL's can sound very dull."
Based on this response I can infer you have never heard good horns, ribbons and your experience with electrostats was probably with them mated to the wrong kinds of electronics. They can sound dull when mated incorrectly...or thin and constricted as well. My Acoustats, when mated with a top notch SET amp had pristine high frequencies with superb tonal differentiation. I spawned several imitators.
I am not after Euphonic I am after what I hear when I hear a violin at 3 mteters distance or a piano in a small chamber environment or a string quartet live in someone's living room (I had an ex who was a violinist and real chamber concerts were more normal than the exception)
The ATC speakers from what I have heard CANNOT do this. Very FEW conventional speaker designs can do this. The membranes are too heavy and overdamped...in fact this is a problem for all low sensitivity speakers when it comes to realistic dynamics. Ribbons and stats have low sensitivity but it is purely electrical sensitivity whereas the ATC and others have real mechanical resistance to make small changes.
I have no doubt that the frequency response of ATCs are fine so yes they can do that part accurately. It is about what they lose rather than what they keep that is the issue. I am not the only person to think that they sound rather dull and after some time boring. Dynaudio sounds similar in that regard to me. When I listened only to rock music I thought my Dynaudios were great...once i diversified they bored me. Very linear over the frequency range but not able to do dynamic contrasts worth a damn. Same issue with ATC.
Ribbons and stats can sound very realistic up to moderate levels...then they lose it. Good horns can pick up where they left off and have acceptably low coloration. Poor horns are swamped by their colorations...what you seem to have heard.
EC gear is not neutral like you want to think it is...it has a greyish cast to the whole tonal structure...typical problem for SS and tubes with too much negative feedback. I have heard a Strad at 1-2 meters distance on a daily basis and it has VIVID and complex tone. Those who think a good SET is embellishing the sound should hear something like that up close (incidentally where many recordings are miked) and the doubt would vanish.
Thank You! Freo-1
I am interested in EC because it is a sonic match w/ Thiel loudspeakers!
Get the earplugs handy!! Analytical speakers with analytical amps...could be deadly...
A good friend of mine has CS3.7s and we have tried them with a lot of different amps. Most end up sounding too analytical. The best match was a VAC 30/30 and a KR VA350i. The worst was McIntosh MC501 monos. We will be trying a NAT hybrid integrated soon...it should sound good as well.
I thought Electrocompaniet had a reputation for being full bodied and a bit soft on top.
Not sure about that...just call it like I heard it.
Interesting...
the CS 3.7 are certainly power-hungary speakers. The only integrated amp that I would consider, would be, the Anthem 225. A perfect fit for these speakers.
Well, they are still 91db/watt sensitive as well. You can push a pair of them up to close to 100db without all that much power. At a 3 meter listening position in the room you probably can get to 100db on less
91db X2 speakers = 94db about
drop (in room) at 3 meters about 3db (it is much less than theory thanks to reflections...been there done that got the measurements)
So,
91db/watt for a pair at 3 meters (already kind of loud)
94db = 2 watts
97db = 4 watts
100db = 8 watts
103db = 16 watts
106db = 32 watts
Now, I don't know about you but my normal listening sessions are in the low 80s with peaks probably around 100-103db. Often lower than that. If the music is heavily compressed then the average is higher but the peaks similar i would guess.
This illustrates quite nicely that a 20 or 30 watt amp with sufficient current drive for lowish impedance will work great with the Thiel in a normal sized room (up to 600 square feet or so). Both the VAC 30/30 and KR audio VA350i meet this criteria nicely and sound worlds better doing so than the SS amps under discussion.
If the speaker doesn't compress heavily until at least 100db then this is relatively accurate. Of course insensitive speakers like ATCs will start compressing very early and will of course need lots of power to reach these volumes.
Interesting...
They can drive just about any speakers you can throw at them. They will drive the Thiels quite nicely.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
And sound like crap doing so. You guys seriously want an analytical sound it seems.
Thanks Again! Freo-1.
Many Thanks! Freo-1.
the Electrocompaniet gear is on my list as well.
I tried Electrocompaniet based on recommendations from the ATC Speakers websites. Prior to that, I was a Pass Labs guy. Still like Pass Labs, but Electrocompaniet is just better sonically overall.A fellow inmate on another website just picked up a pair of AW-180 monoblocks for his speakers. So far connected to Salk Exoctias, he is VERY happy with them.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Edits: 11/10/14
I hear ya! However, I thought people had pretty much put that sound out to pasture, learning from the earlier days of SS.
I will say though that the Soulution gear doesn't do nasty. It is smooth and refined...but they refined the life right out of it. I am not talking about leaving in colorations...it was like they lobotomized it so that it sounds very neutral, monochrome and sort of dead dynamically.
THis is why I don't understand reviewers who are saying it is such a dynamic sounding amp. It simply is not or their definition of dynamics is wildly different from the mainstream understanding of the word.
The sound never ever shocks you or even mildly startles you...like I got regularly from good SET and even a few top notch PP tube amps. Crescendos did seem to reach realistic swell etc.
Anyway, I remember the review of the Magico Q5 from Michael Fremer and he said it was nearly perfect BUT a bit lifeless sounding as well.
To me it seems the real HUMP of the music happens in the lower midrange to upper bass. Kind of where a lean amp doesn't sing.
Seems pointless to me?
charles
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