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I really, really, really, don't get the love affair with this brand of amplifier.
I have heard this brand now numerous times with numerous ancillaries and three or four different brand of speakers and I come away every time with either "ugh sounds cold and a bit sterile" to "ok, but what's the fuss?".
With Eventus speakers it was UGH, with Thiel CS7.2 it was UGH, The first time with Magico it was UGH, the second time with Magico it was "ok" but not what one reviewer is claiming with amazing dynamics and accurate tone. It sounds a bit gray to me in the tonal pallete and the dynamics are not particularly explosive like I hear with KR Audio Kronzillas, for example. By comparison it sounds a bit dead to me.
I think, for example, what I have heard from BAT SS amps and from Edge SS amps are far more convincing than Soulution.
I recently heard an all Soulution system with Magico Q1 speakers and it was definitely not better than my Reference 3a MMC, NAT Symbiosis SE, Monarchy Audio M24 rig. Resolution was not better, dynamics were not better, low level resolution was comparable and tone palette was better differentiated with my system. Cost difference is tremendous!
A funny fact is that my Ref 3a MMCs use carbon fiber woofers, like the Q1 and a Be tweeter, like the Q1. However, they go further in being time coherent and with a much simpler crossover (only 1 capacitor total).
The total cost of the Soulution system was probably close to 100K, for only cd player, integrated amp and a small pair of stand mount speakers!!! Did it deliver for that price?? No Way!
Bottom line, several reviewers have hyped these electronics as being among the best of the best but from what I hear they don't really get very close to the best tube or hybrid gear.
Follow Ups:
I suspect that most reviewers are just as impressed with the price of a component as most others are.
Perhaps more so, since mfg'ers of high-priced are generally better prepared to spend advertising dollars than mfg'ers of superior equipment but no bank roll.
Remember, just like any other business a magazine is in business to sell magazines and advertising. And the object of discussion or its performance really matters little.
That's my first suspicision.
My second is that you could have the component of the century in numerous systems and perhaps 9 out of 10 installations won't be able to take advantage of that component's sonic benefits.
But I suspect the first.
Agreed stehno.
As above, I do have the VAC and VTL on my short-list as well.
Anyone want to mention their fave/local dealer/retailer?
I like VTL gear slightly more than VAC. Tubes and SS really do have different sound signatures between one another. Some speakers work better with tubes, while others absolutely need SS to sound their best.As far as tubes are concerned, I have gotten to the point where the best value for one's dollar is to go the DIY route, where one can use high quality parts and tubes, use point to point wiring, and get better sound than most commercially made gear today. The modern tube gear uses PCB boards, Chinese/Russian tubes of questionable quality and longevity. Going DIY, one can chose from a vast array of quality tubes still available, such as the 6BL7, 807/1625, 6AH4, etc.
Currently using a Thomas Meyer 6AH4 based preamp, which is as quiet as they come, uses TV damper tubes for rectification, and outstanding 3D Sonics. The power amps use 12SN7's and 1625 output tubes, which provide 120 watts of clean reliable tube goodness. If you don't have the skills to make them, there are excellent techs out there who can do the work for reasonable costs, and still be competitive with the commercial stuff.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Edits: 11/22/14
Beautiful pic!
Thank you! It sounds incredible with this preamp:
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Great pic!
Front View:
This sounds WAY better than most commercial line level preamps.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Cool pic!
Soulution, Spectral, Halcro, etc. All spitting images of each other.
I picked DarTZeel CTH over Ayre recently from in-home demos. Both sound much better than Soulution (only heard at shows and never been impressed with cold, dead, unnatural top end sound).
Keith
Audio Net gear (German) is on my radar as well.
wouldn't recommend it...
For those not liking and not understanding the hype of Magico and Constellation: 1. Magazines need something new to rave in order to attract readers, and expensive gets their attention. 2. Ad $$$$. Magazines are BUSINESSES! They exist to make money, not to save you money or to educate you. Textbooks are for educating. Magazines are for making money. 3. Congratulations for using your ears and deciding for yourself. Most audiophiles won't.
As for those not understanding raves over Constellation bass: The bigger the amplifier is, the more folks will claim it has great bass. Big and heavy equates to "great bass" in folks' expectations, even before they plug the unit in. Again, cheers for using your own ears.
It is funny you mention Constellation bass because when I heard Constellation with the Wilson Alexia it was the bass that I noticed they had a big issue with in that room.
I've never heard Soulution, but they have been compared to Spectral which isn't my cup of tea. There are some who will sacrifice everything for more resolution and transparency. Jonathan Valin comes to mind. Soulution + Magico Q1 is probably a bad pairing for everyone else.
Magico Q1 wouldn't exactly be my first choice either. I like the cheaper Magico S series quite a bit more. I heard Magico S3 with my Ayre AX-5 a few months ago at Goodwin's in Boston and that combo sounded really good to me. And the S1 are just the right size for my room. I was tempted.
Anyway, it all depends on your tastes in audio reproduction, what your room sounds like, what music you listen to, etc. There's only a few reviewers whose impressions correlate with my own.
I mean, when was the last time I was truly impressed or "blown away" by any demo systems at any dealers or shows, regardless of gear or cost involved?
Still, I am willing to hold off making conclusions until thorough testing in my own system and room.
happens much more often at the other end of the price spectrum.
The Dennis Murphy modded Pioneer bookshelf speakers for instance. My reaction was "that great sound is coming from what." The what turned out to be a pair of $165 speakers in a room filled with speakers starting out at the thousands each.
and talked to Dennis about it....he has done some real magic with those bookshelf speakers. They sounded effortless and i kept thinking that the much bigger speakers next to them were also on...but they were not. They produced respectable bass from a tiny diaphragm. Gsquared and i were just shaking our heads..
dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
I think I've heard that setup a couple of times and remember being pleasantly surprised by it. The speakers were even being driven by some Pioneer mass-market receiver if I recall..
I've heard "very" good sounding systems at shows. Some rooms are for what ever reason better implemented/setup than others. Show sound quality covers a pretty broad spectrum in my experiences.
Didn't you know. Dry and lean and unlistenable so long as it is very expensive is accurate.
Magico with technical brain was good at ces. Magico with a shindo preamp and analog domain power amps was quite good. Soullution I've heard twice and I don't get it either.
I haven't heard one, but based on their design philosophy (our devices are so fast, the huge amount of NFB we apply doesn't detract from sound quality), they seem to be just a latter day Halcro. I have heard one of their amps and was completely unimpressed.
Think tundra in the winter.
Oh Dear--Could'nt be as bad as Halcro's--Shirley?
D
I have to admit that they are not as bad as I have heard from the Halcros but they are so overhyped it makes me a bit angry.
nt
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
Magicos too.....
And I have never heard the speaker live up to its hype. I've heard 3 different Magicos, with VAC, BAT, VTL, Halcro, Krell, & D'Agostino.
Best was with VAC, - but always heard them as clinical at best, never relaxed, & never worth the price. The Magico's are just NOT dynamic speakers.
And one knows that if they don't sound good with VAC, - they just don't sound good.... :-)
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Can't think of anything to save Magico's--sorry!
D
And don't get me started on Magico.
Interesting...
Possibly- some audiophiles do like that 'dry' or 'lean' sound in their gear. I do not! The Soulution gear is on my short-list to demo.
Curious to see what you think...I have not had the gear in my home for private demo.
Have you guys auditioned Constellation Audio gear?
All those clinical solid state amps sound the same. If you want good sound buy a high quality tube amp. And don't buy one from China.
Dry and lean to me means a piss poor midrange. Basically - where most of the music sits. Seems with that audio model I could simplify my speakers by using only a tweeter and subwoofer.
Kinda why I went back to tubes. Vintage tubes at that.
charles
upper bass too sounds less fleshed out than real life (that region around 100Hz or so).
Morricab,
I've heard the Soulution amplifiers in 4 systems each using different speakers and the overall sound struck me just as you described, lifeless, dry and un involving. I do recognize that we all hear differently and prefer various types of sound presentation. The high quality SET amplifiers that I find marvelously natural and realistic won't impress certain types of listeners. I'm just happy that we have choices.
If you really want to buy solid state and you can afford it buy F.M acoustics. There gear really sounds great without all the hype. The only problem is there is only one dealer in the States for it. I think they are in Colorado.
I'll throw in another one: Electrocompaniet. Their equipment sounds outstanding. Depth, detail, life like, you name it.
Match up a Elecctrocompaniet setup with ATC speakers, and it is a near perfect match. To me, it's the best SS gear I have heard to date.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
I heard Electrocompaniet Nemos get DESTROYED by a "humble" KR Audio VA350i on a pair of big JMLAB Grande Utopia BE EM (the ones with electromagnetic bass damping). It was a bad showing for the old Electrocompaniet. I heard a similar drubbing of Electrocompaniet (this time and AW250 I think) with KR at a guy with Acapella Violon speakers.
IMO, EC doesn't sound very good at all from the two examples I have from above.
Your assessment is out to lunch. The problems you heard had NOTHING to do with the Electrocompaniet amp. The EC gear is one of very few solid state gear that gets it right. Although I listen to tubes more than SS, EC gear is among the very best SS I have heard.
I have a a ECC-1, EC 4.7 preamp, and a AW2-120 power amp. It easily surpassed the Pass Labs gear I used to own in just about every possible measure. I have it connected to ATC speakers with the Super Linear drivers, and I can tell the readers that the combination is truly outstanding. The depth, detail, 3D, and accuracy are stunning. There are some recordings that one would almost swear that the listener is in the studio hearing the performance. Very few amps (especially solid state ones) can provide that illusion.
I have run into audiophiles who eschew accuracy for a euphonic presentation (especially ones who favorite recordings are severely compromised/compressed). The EC/ATC combo exposes the the recording/source for what it is, be it good or bad.
I don't always listen to SS gear, but when I do, I listen to Electrocompaniet.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Oh, it had everything to do with the electrocompaniet gear as that was the only piece of the puzzle that was replaced with both systems. Given that the Electrocompaniet amps are SS with a decent damping factor, you can't really say it was due to lack of power or drive capability. Compatibility should have been high. Sound, sadly, was cold and relatively sterile. The dealer who swapped in the KR for his Nemos was stunned to say the least (it was clear he was not that happy with them to begin with though because he was also playing around with some cheapish Prima Luna amps on the huge JM lab speakers).
I have heard the Electrocompaniet gear enough times with different speakers to know that it works outstanding in the vast majority of applications. A fellow inmate over on another site has been raving about his AW-180 amps with Salk Exoctia speakers. He has nothing but positive things to say, and cannot any fault find fault whatsoever with the amps.
The ATC speakers with the SL driver are among the most accurate sounding available. The EC setup sounds incredible with ATC. As I said, some of the recordings sound almost like one is in the studio with the EC CD/Pre/Power setup. Makes no sense that it it would sound anything but great.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
"Makes no sense that it it would sound anything but great. "
Why would that be the case? Of course it can sound anything but great.
Don't like ATC speakers either...a bit dead and lifeless unless you pump them up...Would much rather listen to a good ribbon, electrostat or horn speaker instead of another boring speaker claiming to be accurate. I am quite sure now that your definition of incredible sounding and mine are far apart. Mine can be compared only with what I hear live and so far only one or two systems have approached that (one cost the better part of a million bucks).
Seriously, if you want to compare them to the best gear out there they will fail. If you want to compare them to other, overhyped SS, then they might be comparable...at least they aren't so mad expensive.
Well, I also compare gear to what I hear live as well. My live reference is mainly classical and jazz music. Based on your response, I now have to wonder if you have a fair amount of high frequency hearing loss (even more than most middle aged males). Not saying that is the case, but, based on your preferences, that could be inferred. IMHO, Most horns are ear bleeders, many ribbons are pretty zippy, and ESL's can sound very dull.ATC's are one of a very few speakers that can reproduce the entire frequency spectrum ACCURATELY. They also can provide superior dynamic contrast without breakup/distortion. There is a very good reason ATC's are in so many studios. However , they are not euphonic, which sounds like that is what you are after.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Edits: 11/11/14
I can see that your powers of analysis are lacking. I was tested a couple of years ago and can hear just fine to around 18Khz. Your implication that the gear I own has tipped up highs is also way off. Although, with the amps I am using one could perhaps accuse my system of being rolled off in the highs...that would also be false, however.
"Most horns are ear bleeders, many ribbons are pretty zippy, and ESL's can sound very dull."
Based on this response I can infer you have never heard good horns, ribbons and your experience with electrostats was probably with them mated to the wrong kinds of electronics. They can sound dull when mated incorrectly...or thin and constricted as well. My Acoustats, when mated with a top notch SET amp had pristine high frequencies with superb tonal differentiation. I spawned several imitators.
I am not after Euphonic I am after what I hear when I hear a violin at 3 mteters distance or a piano in a small chamber environment or a string quartet live in someone's living room (I had an ex who was a violinist and real chamber concerts were more normal than the exception)
The ATC speakers from what I have heard CANNOT do this. Very FEW conventional speaker designs can do this. The membranes are too heavy and overdamped...in fact this is a problem for all low sensitivity speakers when it comes to realistic dynamics. Ribbons and stats have low sensitivity but it is purely electrical sensitivity whereas the ATC and others have real mechanical resistance to make small changes.
I have no doubt that the frequency response of ATCs are fine so yes they can do that part accurately. It is about what they lose rather than what they keep that is the issue. I am not the only person to think that they sound rather dull and after some time boring. Dynaudio sounds similar in that regard to me. When I listened only to rock music I thought my Dynaudios were great...once i diversified they bored me. Very linear over the frequency range but not able to do dynamic contrasts worth a damn. Same issue with ATC.
Ribbons and stats can sound very realistic up to moderate levels...then they lose it. Good horns can pick up where they left off and have acceptably low coloration. Poor horns are swamped by their colorations...what you seem to have heard.
EC gear is not neutral like you want to think it is...it has a greyish cast to the whole tonal structure...typical problem for SS and tubes with too much negative feedback. I have heard a Strad at 1-2 meters distance on a daily basis and it has VIVID and complex tone. Those who think a good SET is embellishing the sound should hear something like that up close (incidentally where many recordings are miked) and the doubt would vanish.
Thank You! Freo-1
I am interested in EC because it is a sonic match w/ Thiel loudspeakers!
Get the earplugs handy!! Analytical speakers with analytical amps...could be deadly...
A good friend of mine has CS3.7s and we have tried them with a lot of different amps. Most end up sounding too analytical. The best match was a VAC 30/30 and a KR VA350i. The worst was McIntosh MC501 monos. We will be trying a NAT hybrid integrated soon...it should sound good as well.
I thought Electrocompaniet had a reputation for being full bodied and a bit soft on top.
Not sure about that...just call it like I heard it.
Interesting...
the CS 3.7 are certainly power-hungary speakers. The only integrated amp that I would consider, would be, the Anthem 225. A perfect fit for these speakers.
Well, they are still 91db/watt sensitive as well. You can push a pair of them up to close to 100db without all that much power. At a 3 meter listening position in the room you probably can get to 100db on less
91db X2 speakers = 94db about
drop (in room) at 3 meters about 3db (it is much less than theory thanks to reflections...been there done that got the measurements)
So,
91db/watt for a pair at 3 meters (already kind of loud)
94db = 2 watts
97db = 4 watts
100db = 8 watts
103db = 16 watts
106db = 32 watts
Now, I don't know about you but my normal listening sessions are in the low 80s with peaks probably around 100-103db. Often lower than that. If the music is heavily compressed then the average is higher but the peaks similar i would guess.
This illustrates quite nicely that a 20 or 30 watt amp with sufficient current drive for lowish impedance will work great with the Thiel in a normal sized room (up to 600 square feet or so). Both the VAC 30/30 and KR audio VA350i meet this criteria nicely and sound worlds better doing so than the SS amps under discussion.
If the speaker doesn't compress heavily until at least 100db then this is relatively accurate. Of course insensitive speakers like ATCs will start compressing very early and will of course need lots of power to reach these volumes.
Interesting...
They can drive just about any speakers you can throw at them. They will drive the Thiels quite nicely.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
And sound like crap doing so. You guys seriously want an analytical sound it seems.
Thanks Again! Freo-1.
Many Thanks! Freo-1.
the Electrocompaniet gear is on my list as well.
I tried Electrocompaniet based on recommendations from the ATC Speakers websites. Prior to that, I was a Pass Labs guy. Still like Pass Labs, but Electrocompaniet is just better sonically overall.A fellow inmate on another website just picked up a pair of AW-180 monoblocks for his speakers. So far connected to Salk Exoctias, he is VERY happy with them.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Edits: 11/10/14
I hear ya! However, I thought people had pretty much put that sound out to pasture, learning from the earlier days of SS.
I will say though that the Soulution gear doesn't do nasty. It is smooth and refined...but they refined the life right out of it. I am not talking about leaving in colorations...it was like they lobotomized it so that it sounds very neutral, monochrome and sort of dead dynamically.
THis is why I don't understand reviewers who are saying it is such a dynamic sounding amp. It simply is not or their definition of dynamics is wildly different from the mainstream understanding of the word.
The sound never ever shocks you or even mildly startles you...like I got regularly from good SET and even a few top notch PP tube amps. Crescendos did seem to reach realistic swell etc.
Anyway, I remember the review of the Magico Q5 from Michael Fremer and he said it was nearly perfect BUT a bit lifeless sounding as well.
To me it seems the real HUMP of the music happens in the lower midrange to upper bass. Kind of where a lean amp doesn't sing.
Seems pointless to me?
charles
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