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Has anyone heard the new ARC SP20 yet? If so, how does it compare to some of their latest preamps and those from the past? Does the sound harken back to the classic SP6, SP8, and SP10 days, or is it more dry sounding like their recent flagship preamps? I think it is really neat that it has a headphone section. The headphone section would cut down on the need to wear out tubes on a headphone amp, but wow, $9k is really steep. These days it seems like every new audio unit costs around $10k. These companies must be trying to drain the last drops from the boomers' retirement savings. There aren't many millenials (or Gen. Xer's) who will ever be able to afford these luxuries.
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Yes. Very similar sound of the SP17.
It may be a better option to step up to the Reference3.
My still in use SP-9 in 1990 was $1300 ($2366 today). Add a Ref 75 amp with the SP-20, and it's a throat-choking $18k. (The Ref 75 for some weird reason also has a 20A IEC socket.)
I have some concern about the life expectancy of those touch screens. I can only imagine the out-of warranty replacement cost.
Another dislike I have on my SP-9 is the inability to independently switch off the phono stage. Same thing on the SP-20 plus the headphone amp, which is claimed to be tubed.
The SP-20 is one of those where yeah, I could do it, but the guilt from paying that kind of money would dilute any joy received. And I can't imagine the sonic difference would be all that mind-blowing.
Audio Research pricing is an enigma to me. On the one hand, they tout the austere, basic styling and a focus on function over fancy. No-nonsense American quality, focusing on sound quality. On the other hand, their pricing is straight out of "audio jewelry."
I really like their stuff but, like some others on this post, would only be a candidate for their used equipment. I just don't see the justification of their pricing (getting what you pay for). And it's not like I'm an all out cheapskate, because I bought my Pass amplifier new.
To me, Rogue Audio sort of symbolizes the "new ARC"... meaning that they fill a void that exists since ARC 'sold out' and went upmarket (isn't ARC owned by an Italian company? Italian design has never been known for "good value"). Rogue seems like good quality, made-in-America tube equipment. Maybe they could be called "Poor Man's ARC"??
I like the sound of the new gear over the old gear that's for sure. Whether you think $9k is a good value that will depend one what you compare it against and of course your taste.
I am going to audition Line Magnetic's new blue Series preamp called the 512CA which is also around $10k US and looks like a big ole tank in person. Unfortunately at 44lbs it's yet another back breaker although better than usual for them. It also doesn't have a headphone jack or a phono stage. Still it will be interesting to compare the Western Electric inspired preamps to more modern designs like the ARC.
For $10k there is also the Audio Note M3 which isn't exactly a slouch and parts are actually made in house and tend to be superior to most everyone else.
And don't forget about Shindo Monbrison for about $8,500 or possibly the Vosne Romanee second hand.
Still the Line Magnetic stuff being made in China may be the under dog in the fight against the established names here and has much to prove to counter the made in China reputation but if you can get past that they'll be worth a long look.
So keep an eye out for the road less traveled you might get more bang for your buck. Here is a show report from China
That's how I got my CAT SL1. Two years old and @ 2/3 the price of new.
It is still breaking in so my comments are preliminary. As compared with the SP9 MKIII it replaced, it has more focus and resolution along with far better dynamic range and stage width. Tonal balance is very similar, aka neutral and not "tubey" sounding. I really like having a remote, phase reversal, on-the-fly phono loading, tube hour meter and headphone amp capability. Which, by the way is using the line stage with a buffer not a separate and otherwise duplicate circuit. I switched to using balanced cables for both DAC and pre to power.
...but wow, $9k is really steep
Considering its design and devices come from the same gene pool as the $60k REF10/REF10 Phono, I think it offers darn good value given the performance. :)
The SP-20 is a fully balanced design with an integral phono stage and headphone amp, touch screen display, remote. Look at the price of ARC separates. Given what is going on inside I would say the price is right. ARC has never been inexpensive.
I wish ARC would make an integrated amp in packaging like the Ref 75. That would be cool, but very pricey I'm sure.
is a 75 watt per channel integrated using KT150 tubes, but is said to run a cool $19k.edit: oops, forgot the pic (do note the link for more info)
Edits: 09/26/14
...the GSi75 pic you posted looks a little retro-cheesy to me. I like your SP20 a lot better and I think the Ref 75 is absolutely the bees knees. I haven't heard any of them so I'm talking strictly design appearance. ;-)
Don't like the new ultra-expensive stuff at all. Looks silly.
The Sp20 is classy. The Ref 75 is the coolest looking amp I've ever seen.
I won't deny one of the things I like about my Sp17 is the look of the silver faceplate with black handles. Classic ARC. Reminds me of the SP4/SP5 from 1977.
My Atlas is silver faceplate with black tube cage. Should look awesome next to the SP17!
"We are all in God's hands... and God is a malign thug."
-Mark Twain
Agree 100% about the Ref 75. It is my favorite 'looking' amp right now. Wish they made an integrated that looked just like it but even if they did, I probably wouldn't want to pay the price. Your SP17 looks sharp.
nt
...can't afford new ARC and many other brands.
CJ has some entry level pieces that are 'affordable' but look at what you get... just about nothing for your money!
I think Rogue still offers good value in American made tube gear.
I haven't heard a Classic pre, ET-3, or Classic 60 amp, but IMO over the years CJ's least expensive products have provided quite a bit of value and good sound for the money.
From reading posts from you about CJ pre's, seems like the only one you liked was their ss pre. Which of their current cheaper products were you referring to?
OK, so I'm a little harsh on CJ gear. I guess I just don't like the CJ tube sound. It's a matter of personal preference.
The only CJ linestages that I liked were the SS CJ PF-R and to a lesser extent the higher-end CJ Premier 18LS. The 18LS was smooth but less dynamic than the PF-R. Good for sleepy time music I suppose.
The entry model vacuum tube PV-14L was a dull sounding dud, slightly veiled, dynamically challenged, and rolled off. But it came with a remote! The Classic does not. My PV-12L was noisy. And I've heard the Premier 17LS in sn audio shop.
Perhaps CJ's much higher-end offerings sound great but based on my experiences at the entry to mid level, I'm still gun shy on buying recent CJ.
For $2200 you get the entry model CJ Classic and no remote. If you want the SE version with the 'good parts', that goes for almost $3000 and still no remote control. A good value? I guess that's just a judgement call but I don't see it.
Years ago I replaced my 'legendary' CJ Premier 11a tube amp with a pair of AES/Cary SixPacs monoblocks at a fraction of the CJ price. And the SixPacs were much better all around in transparency, dynamics, and extension up and down the frequency range. Better value AND sonics for the money.
For American made 'value' in tube gear, I'm favoring Rogue Audio these days.
In terms of reliability, longevity, and service CJ is among the best. For my own sound preferences CJ's older lower end models like the pv and mv lines offered damn good value when they were released. To my ears they beat hell outta comparable ARC models. I suspect the Classic & ET3 are relatively good value too, but then I've liked the CJ products which you and others probably consider too "tubey".I have no desire/need for remotes. I do care about jack layout (related to ic and/or spkr. cable positioning in my setup) and looks. I do care about bass oomph and delineation, but not as much as you do, and I suspect I prefer a warmer/thicker/wetter bass than you do too. We primarily listen to different styles of music also.
Maybe the newest Rogues are better, but when I heard the 99 Magnum pre I was unimpressed. It would just be a sideways move for me. Dunno about their amps.
I'll probably end up getting a 6SN7 pre to replace my aged pv10. So far I haven't heard a 12ax7 or 12au7 based pre that betters an old CJ Premier 3 - for my taste, that is.
Edits: 09/27/14
I know, an endless debate.
But,...a $25 SMD attenuator yields dynamics in spades with a 1.8 Watt amp because of the B&C/JBL High Efficiency speakers in a small room.
If you insist on a pre-amp and want value, get an ARC SP-9 or LS-1, same amplifier stage, remove the bypass caps, upgrade the remaining caps, replace the Alps Blue with a TKD (that's a bit fiddly to do) and replace the now out of spec filament resistors with 12 watt Mills. Best sounding pre I ever had.
At the request of the Moderators,
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I recently found a factory sealed SP-17 from a dealer who had closed his business. He didn't know he had it till he was cleaning out the store room.
Was a good deal and I'm very happy with it.
I tried a CJ classic maybe 6 years ago and was shocked at how little was there for the money. Sound was nice but nothing special.
The youtube video review of the Rogue 99 Super Magnum/ST-100 combination makes that look like a great setup. Rogue is VERY smart about how they buy their parts and do their manufacturing. They buy parts in bulk and keep their company size down. This enables them to sell really 'crazy for the money' gear.
"We are all in God's hands... and God is a malign thug."
-Mark Twain
CJ claims that they use the best quality parts they can put in for the budget, and it is certainly true, if you know what to look for. They have a philosophy of less is more, and thus cut out a lot of frills which most listeners do not use.
Their lowly PV-10 uses, for example big Vishay resistors at $10 a pop for their B+ dropping resisters. You don't see that in even the big ARC preamps. The rest are Dow Corning which are very stable and long lasting. The premier series all use naked Vishays which they source from Europe.
Their Premier series preamps all used the OHFC RCA jacks, for example, Something I don't see even on the ARC reference preamps (at least not the original ones). With up to 9 pairs of those jacks, just check up the price from Sound Connections! Before the Chinese drove the price of copper up, they were $50 a pair.
And then just look at the parts count of the lowly PV-10 and compare it to an ARC LS7. No comparison, the CJ has way more parts, especially film capacitors. The board of the LS-6 measures a measly 6 inch square despite being in a 19 inch faceplate chassis.
As for Rogue: I remember their initial foray into CES. In Looking over the interior of an amp, I commented that the B+ trace running adjacent to the ground was going to arc over time. Happened to be the designer I was talking to, although I didn't know it at the time. He was taken aback but next year, when I walked into the booth, he came right up and told me the arcing issue had occurred and they had to slightly modify the boards....
FWIW and YMMV, of course.
Using the best parts doesn't mean a lot if they can't deliver on the sonics that customers seek. I never cared much for the "CJ sound". Some folks love 'em.
It wasn't uncommon for ARC amps like the VT100 series to literally smoke and burn PCB traces because ARC chose not to use fuses. They've all been there and to Rogue's credit they improved their layout per your comments.
I believe hifinutt is given credit by Rogue for suggesting the use of KT120 power tubes in the Cronus Magnum.
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