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Transition from SS to Tubes

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After decades of using SS amps and preamps, mostly older NAD stuff I purchased a Wright Tube Phono pre and discovered the benefit of a tube signal path. Now I am contemplating a move to Tube Pre/Amp and have a couple questions.

I can get an old Scott I have laying around repaired and try it. I could buy a rebuilt Dynaco 70 for under $800 or I could put together more money and buy something newer like the units that Wright built matching up with my phono pre or some other modern higher end stuff.

I don't like to trade out stuff very often, I've used the NAD 3020 that currently drives the system since I bought it new in the early 80's. So I guess if the older rebuilt stuff is not up to snuff I'd rather just go right to the modern stuff. However if I can get the sound without spending $4K I'd like to do that.

I'm not one to experiment or tweak, just play records. I don't play music very loud anymore and mostly listen to acoustic music like Orchestral, Chamber, or older jazz. I do rock from time to time but not near as much as I used to.

I have a pretty large LP collection and a couple decent sources. VPI Scoutmaster with Benz Micro HO into the Wright WPP200 and a CAL Delta into an older Theta Cobalt DAC. Speakers are JBL 4311B or Klipsch KG 4. I prefer the JBL at the moment.

Opinions?

Follow Ups:

RE: Transition from SS to Tubes - wheezer 10:19:19 10/31/09 (0)
Shoot Jim McShane an email. He'll guide you in the right direction.
RE: Transition from SS to Tubes - fredtr 07:27:05 10/27/09 (0)
Everyone has their own taste, and every tube amplifier sounds different. This is true of different amplifier designs using the same output tube type. Ideally you have someone in your area that can loan you some tube amplifiers to listen to with the rest of your components.

If this is not the situation, suggest you have someone get the Scott working for you and listen to it. Post where you are in vintage sections and ask who repairs/restores in your area.

The Scott is a very good sounding amplifier, there is a very good chance you will love the way it sounds and keep it. If not, sell it and you have more money to buy something else.

In most things, you get what you pay for. Meaning the more money you spend the better the sound/product. From my experience tube audio is one case where this does not always hold true. It depends more on your taste and the components it plays with.
What kind of 'old Scott' do you having laying around?..... - Marc Bratton 12:58:16 10/21/09 (3)
There are businesses that specialize in not just repairing, but completely refurbishing with all modern componenty, those 'old Scotts'. They can sound really amazing. Their owners tend to never sell these, I notice....maybe you should look into this. Sounds like your style. If I had one, that's what I'd do. Hardly anyone knows how to build the transformers they way they could back then, now. That's what makes or breaks the sound of a tube amp. Look into it.
- RE: What kind of 'old Scott' do you having laying around?..... - Uncletoad 14:08:30 10/21/09 (2)
  I have an LK72.
  - Not hard.... - Uncle Mike 16:59:00 10/22/09 (1)
    To rebuild the power supply and change coupling caps (this is a must as these caps are prone to failure at this age)in these old Scotts. After that your cruising. Feel more adventurous and you can do some small mods. All in all a good investment that will bring joy.
    I have an LK72 as well, somewhere between the first and second version as the power supply had some parts of each. It shares duty with a Sherwood S5000 w/el84 outputs as my favorite integrated. It also has a good phono section so you can keep all onboard.
    Email me thru the Asylum member link if you want more info.
    
    Edits: 10/22/09
    - Well, there you have it...... - Marc Bratton 18:01:59 10/23/09 (0)
      Now you know exactly what you need to do.
What's your price range? - darkmoebius 12:47:42 10/21/09 (9)
For integrated amp or amp/preamp separates

Plenty of great options out there
- RE: What's your price range? - Uncletoad 13:02:33 10/21/09 (8)
  That depends. If I buy it in pieces over 6 months or a year less that $4K If I buy something now under $1000.
  
  For instance, a friend of mine suggested I buy a Convergent Audio preamp that was an older model. Still great sound but lower bucks. Then buy some mono blocks or some other power amp like an old Dynaco 70.
  
  OTOH I can get an integrated vintage unit or repair my old Scott LK-72 that doesn't work. I've also found deals on PAS 2 Dynaco and Dynaco 70 combos that are under $1000.
  
  I guess I just don't know if it's worth waiting to put money into higher dollar stuff or if this lower buck vintage stuff will do it.
  
  Then I am concerned about the audiophile no tone circuit thing. I don't get that. Take all the tone circuits out of the electronics and leave crossovers in your speakers...or use a crossover on the subwoofer.
  
  There are times when I could use a bass knob depending on the record I'm playing. I don't understand what the issues is with tone circuits.
  
  Separate topic I suppose.
  - The Audio Note OTO Line Integrated is close - Frihed89 01:48:45 10/22/09 (0)
    If you are fortunate enough to live in a city with an AN dealer, give it a listen. A list of audionote dealers can be found at the link I have provided. If you email mike&neli at audiofederation, they can tell you the exact US price.
    "Live free or die"
    - http://www.audionote.co.uk/distributor/dist_home_01.shtml (Open in New Window)
  - Lotta great options... - darkmoebius 18:01:11 10/21/09 (6)
    First, the integrateds. Some of these are already sold, but look for others popping up
    VTL IT-85 - 80 wpc(EL34). VTL makes great, great, equipment
    Manley Stingray - 20wpc(EL84 tubes) Triode/40wpc Ultra-linear. Great sounding amp with a ballsy power to it
    Manley Stingray(another)
    Audiomat (Mutine) Arpège Référence - 30 wpc(EL34) - wonderful sounding amp, lush, refined, very, very musical
    Almarro 318B - 18wpc(6C33C-B). One of the finest sounding integrateds I have ever heard. Was on par with my much, much, more expensive amps as far as musical satisfaction was concerned. But, 18 wpc may be a little underpowered for your tastes
    Onix SP3 melody mkii - 38wpc(5881). Well reviewed. Onix is making some really nice gear
    
    I'll look into some amp & preamp suggestions later tonight.
    
    Edits: 10/21/09
    - RE: Lotta great options... - Uncletoad 18:19:41 10/21/09 (5)
      Fantastic list. Thanks for taking the time!
      - And now, Amps & Preamps.... - darkmoebius 22:29:53 10/21/09 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Lotta great options... posted by Uncletoad on October 21, 2009 at 18:19:41
        
        Amps
        
        Quicksilver Silver 90 - 90wpc(KT88) - QS makes high performance gear at affordable prices by using non-flashy chassis. But don't let the looks fool you, their stuff is great. ONE OF THE BEST BANG-for-buckcompanies out there. Other 90's
        
        Quicksilver Audio Mid Mono - 50wpc(EL34)
        
        Music Reference RM-10 - 35wpc(EL84) - search out a few reviews of this amp.
        
        Vtl st-85 - 83wpc(EL34)
        
        Antique Sound Lab KMP60-Foxdt - 60wpc (Parallel Single-Ended[PSE] 6C33C-B) - one of the original value/quality Chinese manufacturers
        
        Melody M880 - 50wpc(KT88)
        
        Preamps
        
        Modwright swl 9.0 . another Modwright swl 9.0 se
        
        BAT VK-30 w/ phono - BAT makes high quality products
        
        RE: And now, Amps & Preamps.... - Uncletoad 05:54:55 10/22/09 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: And now, Amps & Preamps.... posted by darkmoebius on October 21, 2009 at 22:29:53
        
        Thanks for taking the time to do that. These are across a broad range of tubes and power. Is there some way for me to figure out weather I want an EL84 amp or EL34 amp or KT88 amp? They should have different sounds but in audio gear I have little opportunity to audition them for myself.
        
        RE: And now, Amps & Preamps.... - thisisjay 08:47:51 10/22/09 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: And now, Amps & Preamps.... posted by Uncletoad on October 22, 2009 at 05:54:55
        
        I cannot comment on the EL84's since I have never heard them. 3 out of 4 of the tube amplifiers were EL34 based. The amp I have now is KT88 based and I'm not missing the EL34 sound at all. The EL34 is definitely sweeter in the mid range, but in retrospect all of that mid range "bloom" created almost an artificial sound. The EL34 can have good highs depending on the tube, but seem to lack in the bass department. The KT88's seem to be more even from top to bottom with no shortage of low end which seems to work well with all types of music.
        Unless you are listening to mostly classical and instrumental, you might be happier with a KT88 based amplifier.
        
        RE: And now, Amps & Preamps.... - Uncletoad 09:42:39 10/22/09 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: And now, Amps & Preamps.... posted by thisisjay on October 22, 2009 at 08:47:51
        
        I listen to all types of music however the vast majority these days is acoustically created music like chamber music, orchestral, older jazz.
        
        I do have a long history of rock however and am prone to doing that once in awhile so I wouldn't want to make a rig incapable of doing that. On the other hand I'll still have plenty of solid state stuff around to do that high volume big bass thing if need be.
        
        Right now I'm looking for that sweet first watt because I rarely use more. 20 solid state watts in that room is to damn loud to be in there with.
        
        RE: And now, Amps & Preamps.... - jaydacus 14:34:30 10/22/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: And now, Amps & Preamps.... posted by Uncletoad on October 22, 2009 at 09:42:39
        
        I'm so happy with my ST-120 that I could not imagine anyone not being happy with this amp. It handles any style of music at any volume and always gives the best sound to everything. It also has triode mode for less power(32w per channel) for less power, but cleaner sound.
        
        I'm in no way affiliated with the person that sells these, just a really satisfied customer.
        ST-120 (Open in New Window)
RE: Transition from SS to Tubes - capny 12:32:29 10/21/09 (0)
I also started out my own system with a SS piece, my first being a Zenith MC-7051 receiver rated at 40 wpc rms. Not a bad start for a high school kid, but not hi end either.

I always remembered how my dad's stereo sounded from the 1960's, a Philips tube receiver with a Garrard TT and built in speakers, warm and full.

My first foray back into tubes was around 2 to 3 years ago when I went to the NY audio show and listened to the Cayin A-100T integrated. The short story is that I bought the amp on the spot, it was that good. Warm sounding without that overly warm mushiness, sharp, quick and with good bass and fluid mids. All point to point wiring and handbuild by an aircraft manufacturing company.

I still have the Cayin, and will keep it for the next 20 years. But I have also started looking for vintage tube pieces, and have fairly recently found two. My first piece is a Fisher 400 Receiver, which puts out some 28 wpc using 7868 tubes.

I must admit that when I first got the Fisher it looked like hell, dirty, full of vintage baked on grime and dusty like it had been sitting for 30 plus years. It looked like hell, but I bought it for $15.00.

Got it home and spent 4 hours cleaning up the chassis, being careful to remove the grime and dirt while leaving the lettering intact. Then I spent some 5 hours cleaning the faceplate, using a combination of mild soap and occasionally an orange cleaner, applying same with toothpicks.

I plugged it in using a poor mans variac, a 100w lightbulb in series with an extension cord. After some 3 to 4 hours with the lightbulb in place, I plugged it directly into the wall. I was using a Marantz CD-4272 CD player and Polk Monitor 7B speakers with Peerless tweeters.

I was not prepared for he shock that I received. This 45 year old unit sounded so good, so rich, so clear, so warm, with mids to die for and a soundstage that was amazingly wide. The best $15.00 I had ever spent. I have decided to keep my Fisher, and I am always on the lookout for vintage tube stuff.

The Fisher looks really good now, the face is clean, the chassis looks almost new and the tubes are all original. I have changed nothing, just replaced the brass caps on the knobs, and I'm having a mahogany case made for it as well.

I also found a Lafayette LA-224 tube integrated, but have not applied my sparce skills to try to get it to start working yet. This one was picked up out of someone's discarded trash when cleaning out the basement, a freebee. Looks like hell, with damage to the faceplate and damage to the knobs. But I'm eager to give ut a listen.

For someone who is looking to foray into tubes, consider looking for something vintage before spending vast resources on a new amp. Fisher, Scott and Sansui are names that come immediately to mind, and they produced some GREAT stuff.

Remember, my Fisher receiver is 45 years old, and sounds better than anything new that I have listened to under $400.00.
RE: Transition from SS to Tubes - thisisjay 10:18:15 10/21/09 (1)
First point of advice. DON'T GET A JOLIDA. They use printed circuit boards(muddy sound compared to point to point) and are mostly made overseas. Forget about ANY of that yuck coming out of China(Music Angel, Shangling, Yaquin, etc.) The only exception would be Cayin which can be nice depending on the model, but expensive.

I have owned 4 tube amplifiers and countless solid state units and I'm telling you, the new ST-120 being sold by Bob Latino on Ebay blows all of them out of the water. Best sound quality at any price point under $5000 and maybe even above. He also has a reworked st-70 which is only 35w/ channel, but the ST-120 has the advantage of being able to use Genelex Gold Lion KT-88's which, IMHO, are the best current production tubes. You may not need 60w /channel, but it sounds clear at any volume. The price is right too. Either unit can be had for under $1500 including assembly(made in the USA!) or under $1200 if you assemble it yourself(so much fun and so rewarding, but not for everyone). That even includes the best tubes, excluding NOS, that money can buy.
- RE: Transition from SS to Tubes - geraldm121 11:58:57 10/21/09 (0)
  My stereo 70 seems to use um ,gee I think they are circuit boards !(for the drivers). Now the Latino version may be excellent I don't know because I don't own one and have not even heard it so commenting on something I have not owned or heard would be at best foolish. I do own 2 Cayin Amps the A70 and an MT12a (they are made beautifully certainly as well as my McIntosh or Luxman Amps) and the MT12a is an EL84 amp similar to the Jolida 102B. Only one problem it does not sound as good.
  My point is there are no absolutes. Saying that all circuit board designs are bad and all point to point designs are good based on owning 4 tube amps is probably not so smart as your sampling is somewhat lacking in number.
  Same deal in regards to your comments about Chinese manufactured amps they make junk and they make good stuff (and as I mentioned Jolida is not a Chinese company however they do manufacture in the Shanghai area).
  Finally I am pleased to note that at least you feel that the Russian manufactured KT88 Output Tubes you recommend are OK (another American owned but foreign produced product) as Russia is so well known for the high quality of their consumer products. Oh well (sigh)
Its not tube but its very good for the money - morricab 08:37:26 10/21/09 (0)
The Monarchy Audio SE250 monoblocks are $2500 for a pair and are zero feedback hybrids (tube input/Mosfet output). Very good value for the money.

You can add the Monarchy Audio NM24 DAC/preamp. It is a tube dac and a tube preamp in one chassis and you can get it from them for about $1100.

Other options for good sounding affordable tube gear:

AES Sixpac monoblocks. 55watts of Class A triode power for $2500
Manley Stingray. 50 watt integrated amp.
Manley Mahi monos. 50 watt monoblocks not sure what they go for used
Manley Snapper monos. 100 watt bigger brothers about $2500 used I would guess.

With the stingray you don't need a separate pre but with the monoblocks the Monarchy still makes a great DAC/pre choice.
RE: Transition from SS to Tubes - geraldm121 05:28:22 10/21/09 (1)
Frihed 89 suggested two excellent choices (I am considering the Leben myself) and I also agree that an EL84 amp should match well with JBL4311's. EL84's give you the closest thing to that pure "single ended type sound in a push/pull amp with none of the quirky drive and tube replacement issues that can be a problem with single ended amps. If the price tag of the Leben or the Audionote is a problem then you may want to consider the "Poor Man's" version the Jolida 102B. You can pick up a new one for less than $600.00 USD and used they go for $400 or less. The Jolida is a Chinese build but the company is American based and thus has service support in North America. I have owned mine for about 3 years and it is a tank as it is used every night in a bedroom system with no problems to date. I have tried many different brand output tubes all were good but I finally settled on the ubiquitous Russian 6P14P's in combination with Mullard CV4024's and a reissue Mullard 12ax7. Great amp excellent sound and very reasonably priced. If you can afford the Leben then by all means go for it. If not,you may be surprised how close you can come with the Jolida. Good luck.
- RE: Transition from SS to Tubes - Uncletoad 05:41:01 10/21/09 (0)
  Leben is well out of range for me. The Jolida has been suggest twice now. Interesting. Any other opinions?
For that kind of music an EL-84 amp would work very nicely - Frihed89 11:37:41 10/20/09 (0)
The two I am thinking of are integrated amps by Leben, the CS300, and the Audio Note OTO. The Leben is line only and the Audio Note comes in line and phono versions. Both need fairly efficient speakers, as they put out 12 and 10 watts respectively. They aren't cheap (I am not sure of the US prices), but they both sound lovely. Both operate in class A. The Leben is PP the OTO is SE. You can buy an SE or PP version of the OTO power amp section. These are called the P-1PP (12 Watts) and the P-1SE (10 Watts). If you just play records, you already have the phono pre.
"Live free or die"

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