I think you mis-read

Posted by John Marks (M) on April 22, 2014 at 11:38:10

In Reply to: RE: "equal or superior" posted by ahendler on April 22, 2014 at 09:56:06:

I said that I was disinclined to participate in such discussions (vinyl vs. digital).

I don't believe I told anyone else what they could or could not discuss.

If I did, please point it out to me by cutting and pasting.

Vinyl versus digital is an analogue of discussions about the unassailable total world-bestriding greatness of every last little piece of potboiling music an angry guy named Louie Beethoven wrote.

The way that works is, (1) people subjectively--totally subjectively--decide to decide upon which characteristics make for greatness in a composer. (2) They then totally subjectively decide upon those characteristics, such as the ability to eke the greatest amount of repetitious argumentative music out of the smallest possible germ of a phrase, that Beethoven had more of than anyone else, ever. (3) They then look around and see who "OBJECTIVELY" does the best job of meeting their totally subjective criteria.

Surprise! Beethoven is "objectively" the best!

The other gentleman first of all has a financial investment in vinyl equipment and an expectation of earning money by cutting lacquers. Good for him. But that's hardly a double-blind test, is it? He also discounts ticks and pops as non-issues; whereas some persons of discernment and taste will find ticks and pops to be deal-breakers. (See the flowchart above.)

And lest anyone think I am being a cad, how many times have I been told that the ability to buy gear at dealer cost minus rep's commission FATALLY compromises my judgment? Gimme a break.

Nonody really knows how a microphone sounds, we can only approximate an idea by using it with various mic preamps. Many pieces of gear lean out sound, other pieces of gear fatten it up. One engineer told me that even if Plangent Processes was totally 100% effective and not with any unintended side effects, people who have grown to love the sound of those master tapes recorded with all kinds of mechanical intermodulation generation and played back with the same, will find the REAL, not clouded-up sound of the master tape "too thin."

At the end of the day, no camera is perfect for all purposes, which is why fine-art photography is an art, and the same can be said for recording music and playing it back.

I have no problem with anyone's claiming that they prefer LPs and I have no problem with anyone's claiming that an LP for them brings them more deeply into the music--as long as they realize that there is some Vaseline on the lens. Because if there wasn't any Vaseline on the lens, ALL turntables, tone arms, and cartridges would sound alike, would they not? So, you can pick your poison but I'll pick my own, thanks.

Just please don't hang noodles from my ears by saying that analog is more "accurate," because I think that all that means is, "Analog is accurate insofar as I subjectively decide to define accuracy, magnifying artifacts I enjoy listening to, and ignoring artifacts that are best ignored."

Great, fine. I love LPs too--for nostalgia, etc. There's a warmth there that very much might not have existed when the musicians were playing... . Honestly, I think that both the SMMTM LPs are a little warmer than real, but nobody has ever died from listening to them, and I am as happy as anyone is to make a virtue of necessity. And I did some page-turning on that session, so I heard at least some of the sound from up close, far closer than an audience or even the mic array.

BTW, I am equally dismissive of those who flatly state that, "Digital sounds better."

Really? A $239 Tascam chip-based 24/96 shirtpocket recorder sounds better than a fully-restored Studer A80 with Cello electronics running 30 ips half-inch two track?"

Give me a break on that, too.

JM

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Follow Ups Full Thread

Topic - Question only for those that have, at length, compared these much lauded technologies: - tinear 08:06:33 04/22/14 (51)

RE: Question only for those that have, at length, compared these much lauded technologies: - RGA 18:49:46 04/23/14 (0)

RE: Question only for those that have, at length, compared these much lauded technologies: - middleground 07:00:23 04/23/14 (0)

RE: Question only for those that have, at length, compared these much lauded technologies: - Bill Way 16:17:38 04/22/14 (4)

RE: Question only for those that have, at length, compared these much lauded technologies: - DrChaos 18:33:08 04/22/14 (2)

LP rarely needs compression - Ralph 10:21:56 04/23/14 (0)

RE: Question only for those that have, at length, compared these much lauded technologies: - Tony Lauck 19:26:44 04/22/14 (0)

Thanks for such a well-reasoned reply. The complexities certainly have - tinear 17:33:40 04/22/14 (0)

I object to the slam on the turntables - briggs 14:39:35 04/22/14 (2)

No slam meant, sorry. I personally very much respect the sound my - tinear 15:02:04 04/22/14 (1)

RE: No slam meant, sorry. I personally very much respect the sound my - pictureguy 17:47:07 04/22/14 (0)

I question the premise - John Marks 09:39:43 04/22/14 (21)

RE: I question the premise - Todd Krieger 00:26:41 04/23/14 (0)

Forget the medium... - Ozzie 17:23:57 04/22/14 (0)

Well, it is difficult to see the pearl when the water is so muddied, I agree. Let me clarify, without - tinear 15:29:39 04/22/14 (5)

You should ask... - mkuller 16:25:35 04/22/14 (4)

RE: You should ask... - Ozzie 18:12:13 04/22/14 (2)

Nor do I... - mkuller 18:47:35 04/22/14 (1)

RE: Nor do I... - Ozzie 11:21:51 04/23/14 (0)

My query wasn't limited. He's invited, of course, to weigh in. If you know him, please pass the request along. - tinear 17:34:48 04/22/14 (0)

John Curl measured sounds on vinyl up to 50 Khz - Potzrebie 15:17:16 04/22/14 (0)

Than you John, as eloquent and informative as ever (nt) - 13th Duke of Wymbourne 14:24:53 04/22/14 (1)

I'll 2nd that big time * - Mike K 19:14:58 04/22/14 (0)

RE: I question the premise - Ralph 11:41:56 04/22/14 (0)

The stock audiophile true-believer response to your second plot... - Steve O 11:28:23 04/22/14 (8)

That's not an in-room/microphone plot. It is the pure digital data on a DAW. - John Marks 11:44:08 04/22/14 (7)

Why hide the actual dynamic range you are displaying? - Jon Risch 21:20:46 04/22/14 (1)

I was confusing "With Strings" 1955 with Brown's death date 1956. - John Marks 07:28:58 04/23/14 (0)

I assumed that... - Steve O 13:01:41 04/22/14 (4)

Real things matter, theories usually don't - John Marks 08:31:31 04/23/14 (3)

Disagree...in the consumer market perception IS reality... - Steve O 12:02:42 04/23/14 (2)

IIRC, the DAC used was a Benchmark... - rlw 09:04:07 04/24/14 (1)

No kidding... - Steve O 10:16:24 04/24/14 (0)

"equal or superior" - Ralph 09:34:39 04/22/14 (18)

Done any "direct to disk" recordings yet? - morricab 13:22:02 04/24/14 (0)

May I ask what your analog system involved? - jbrrp1 19:36:27 04/22/14 (1)

Sure - Ralph 09:34:11 04/23/14 (0)

RE: "equal or superior" - ahendler 09:56:06 04/22/14 (14)

I think you mis-read - John Marks 11:38:10 04/22/14 (3)

RE: I think you mis-read - Bob Neill 06:53:14 04/24/14 (0)

Total disagreement about Lud--- if you find his music "repetitious," I - tinear 15:20:40 04/22/14 (0)

I think you mis-read too. - Ralph 13:20:02 04/22/14 (0)

RE: "equal or superior" - Ralph 11:18:38 04/22/14 (0)

For the record - Goober58 10:59:30 04/22/14 (8)

RE: For the record - c1ferrari 18:35:20 04/22/14 (6)

I think you nailed it - reuben 05:09:26 04/23/14 (3)

RE: I think you nailed it - c1ferrari 17:29:25 04/23/14 (0)

You might want to hear what direct to disk can do. - Ralph 09:38:36 04/23/14 (1)

RE: You might want to hear what direct to disk can do. - c1ferrari 17:44:49 04/23/14 (0)

RE: For the record - Goober58 21:16:33 04/22/14 (1)

RE: For the record - c1ferrari 21:49:13 04/22/14 (0)

RE: For the record - Ralph 11:22:24 04/22/14 (0)

Follow Ups

I think you mis-read - John Marks 11:38:10 04/22/14 (3)

RE: I think you mis-read - Bob Neill 06:53:14 04/24/14 (0)

Total disagreement about Lud--- if you find his music "repetitious," I - tinear 15:20:40 04/22/14 (0)

I think you mis-read too. - Ralph 13:20:02 04/22/14 (0)

I think you mis-read

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