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Cheap rhetorical trick?

208.250.105.109

I quote something which is on the record from an AES convention in 1991, reference the EXACT PUBLICATION in which it can be found, and you call it a cheap rhetorical trick about someone from the 1950's? Do you read carefully what is written here?

"You still have offered NOTHING of substance to show what is wrong with a DBT".

I have offered specific, verifiable references and quotes from people who conduct DBTs and show nothing but contempt for anyone who has an opposing view and you call it trickery? Wake up and READ! Address the posts specifically.

I have nothing against DBTs. I do have something against people who will consider nothing else and who ridicule those who do. Again, this occurred in the 1990's, hardly the 1950's.

BTW, I was also born in the 50's, so that would put us pretty close together. Find something else to try to shift the topic.

"...you have offered NOTHING to support the idea that a sighted test FOR SMALL AUDIBLE DIFFERENCES has any value at all."

My argument has and still is that there are things which a DBT may not (yet) be able to show, but that it is possible for people to detect these things WITHOUT benefit of a DBT.

OK. You say that science and DBT can find everything. Here's another example, recent as far as science goes and related to recent and continuing research.

Before I continue, up front I will ask that you actually address directly the topic presented.

For your reference, this can be found in Sterephile, Vol. 15 No.1, Jan. 1992, p.69. Please read it in its entirety if you want to dispute it.

Bart Locanthi is described as being a well-respected member of the audio community and a Fellow of both the AES and Acoustical Society of America. He is "chairman of an AES ad hoc committee formed to study digital audio data-compression systems and perform listening tests."

"First, Locanthi related his experience of listening to a DAT tape that contained examples of low-bit-rate encoded music. He had requested the tape from Swedish Radio, the organization which conducted the official listening test of these systems. Almost immediately Locanthi heard several peculiar sounds in the music, the most obvious being an idle tone at 1.5khz. When Locanthi imformed Swedish Radio of this problem, they were surprised that they had not discovered it, but they did hear the 1.5khz artifact after it was pointed out to them. When Locanthi asked how such an obvious flaw could go undetected, the response was that he 'knew what to listen for'".

Swedish Radio conducted "over 20,000 separate trials and 60 'expert' listeners". They failed to detect a flaw immediately apparent to a single listener. Their listening-test methodology--called 'hidden reference, double-blind, triple stimulus'--was beyond scientific reproach. Yet a single listener in 'unscientific' listening conditions immediately identified this fundamental problem."

"Swedish Radio had previously concluded that 'Both codecs...have now reached a level of performance where they fulfill the EBU [European Broadcasting Union] requirements for a distribution codec.' In other words, the system in which Locanthi discovered the flaws had already been officially proclaimed sonically acceptable as the replacement for AM and FM radio broadcasting--a replacement that will likely be in place for many decades."

You said "I'm simply pointing out that when you argue STRICT AUDIBLITY, a DBT is called for." This is a direct proof that IT DID NOT WORK IN THIS CASE and that A SINGLE PERSON IN A NON-DBT ENVIRONMENT IDENTIFIED SOMETHING which was missed in 20,000 separate trials.

20,000 SEPARATE TRIALS! Described by the researchers themselves as "hidden reference, double-blind, triple stimulus".

If you cannot accept that this is true, then you apparently refuse to accept documented, verifiable proof (because it shows that DBT can be fallible).

dlr



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