Home General Asylum

General audio topics that don't fit into specific categories.

[ Follow Ups ] Thread: [ Display  All  Email ] [ General Asylum ]
[ Alert Moderator ]

Re: Yes, but

>what rappers/discs do you feel show that there is talent in the rap field? Perhaps I've missed something.

I was exposed to rap fairly early on--1979. I listened to it in the early 80s & then didn't pay much attention until I heard a Beastie Boys single in 1985. After the big Run-DMC & Beastie Boys albums that came out in 1986 I listened to quite a bit of rap until 1992's The Chronic by Dr. Dre, the debut of Snoop Dogg. Since then I don't think I've purchased more than a dozen rap albums. Every once in awhile I hear something I think is very good--the first Pharcyde album, the third P.M. Dawn album, Eminem, MC Paul Barman, an odd tune here or there. Mostly I don't pay attention. Most of it sounds the same to me. And I hear efforts to deviate from the typical gangsta style, efforts to inject positivity, what have you. Some are good, but most suck. Like anything else. Who do I think is talented? The Beastie Boys, certainly. I don't think they've ever put out a bad record. De La Soul, A Tribe Called Quest, P.M. Dawn, KRS-One, Public Enemy, Eminem, absolutely. If not for Chuck D I'd say Eminem was the best rapper I've ever heard. Nobody has ever done with words what he does. He is the Sinatra of rap. The phrasing that is required to do what he does is absolutely mind-boggling. But I still think Chuck D is the best. I've never heard a voice like his...maybe Paul Robeson's voice would be an apt comparison (I am not talking about singing talent). There is a quality to Chuck D's voice that comes out precisely because of how he uses it--to rap. And he is the voice of rap so far as I'm concerned. What he does evokes a listening experience that you won't get from listening to anyone else. How anyone could say that does not require talent is beyond me.

>Many jazz purists feel that anything after "In a Silent Way" should be on the list, but I don't agree

I don't have much use for anything he did after 'E.S.P.' But sellout? No.

>just about anything after "Decoy" was a blatant attempt to make money while sacrificing any music of real value

If he'd done an album of Phil Collins covers, then I'd agree with the term 'sellout.' But while I have absolutely no use for what he was doing, it was hardly Muzak. I believe he remained true to his artistic sensibilities. I just don't get where this is a sellout. It makes no sense to me. It's not like the stuff was disposable pop garbage designed to sell a million copies. 'Rockit' is a different story. What Miles did? I'd characterize it more as flailing about in an uninteresting genre as his skills & sensibilities declined. But sellout? No way.

>I've not heard every single disc Miles made after that point but I've heard most of them

I haven't heard them all, either, but I've heard a lot of them. Recently someone sent me a copy of 'Aura.' One of the worst things I've ever heard. But I can't see how that would be considered a sellout. Now, if you've heard 'Doo-Bop,' again, I have no idea how that could be characterized as a sellout. It's simply a mediocre funk jazz album with a few raps on it. Lousy raps, I might add. I have no doubt had Miles not passed when he did that he would have turned out a good piece of work, had he had more time to pursue that direction. I hear real potential in that record. A year after it was released, Guru put out Jazzmatazz, a jazz/rap hybrid, on Blue Note records. Digable Planets rapped over jazz. And so did the Pharcyde. The Quincy Jones album might more easily be labeled a 'sellout,' since it was a pop marriage of jazz luminaries & rappers. Still, he was ahead of his time with it. Miles' record was more serious, and, even two years later, he was still ahead of the curve.

>Jazz/Rock Fusion itself was a sell out

By this argument any style that is in any way a hybrid is a sellout. Only the root forms can be considered non-sellouts. What's ironic about this is that rap is as pure a form that was created in the 20th Century. Sure, there are influence, but, prior to 1975, there's very little that resembles it closely. It's based on itself, and it was created from scratch. Yet everyone finds it to be so worthless. This always amazes me.

I don't listen to fusion & never did. But there's a fine line between exploring an artistic muse & selling out. As much as I detest the stuff, I don't think it's a sellout in & of itself & never did.

>I'm afraid I've not heard anything by the three artists you mentioned

So a guy who's telling me that he doesn't think that rap requires any talent actually hasn't heard any of these guys? This amazes me. You've never heard Gil-Scott Heron's 'The Revolution Will Not Be Televised?' I mean, come on. To sling the insults that you do about rap, yet never having heard any of these three people...this astounds me.

Ken Nordine is a voice-over specialist who's been putting out records dubbed 'word jazz' since the 1950s. It's a little difficult to describe, but think of it as stream-of-consciousness poetry/prose over background jazz. If you're thinking of Jack Kerouac spitting out beat manifestos while someone with a goatee beats on bongos, you're way off. It's nothing like that. Maybe someone else can describe it better than I can, or take a look on AMG.

Gil-Scott Heron is more like a beatnik poet, except of the Black Panther-ish variety. He's made a lot of very interesting records where he explores social issues from a typically incendiary point of view. Bernard Purdie (James Brown's longtime drummer) played on some of his records. So did Ron Carter and Bernie Worrell. My favorite of the three people I've mentioned here, though I'm not exactly a fanatic. But the anger that emanates from his record is similar in tone to what you hear on Public Enemy records. Unfortunately, in his middle age, apparently he's fallen on hard times. I did not know if he had any history of drug abuse; actually I don't think he did. But over the past several years the word is that he became a homeless crack addict. I don't know what's happening with him now. But I do think he's still alive.

Linton Kwesi Johnson recorded several reggae/dub records in the late 1970s & early 80s. His delivery is somewhat rap-like, and he also explores social issues, if with a little less anger than Heron. But he was very influential in reggae & dub, with lots of people following his tradition of beat poetry in combination with the music.

>But I'm assuming that there are elements of rap and perhaps jazz - they're likely some kind of fusion - and your question is how can these two coincide if I feel rap artists have no talent?

Yeah, something like that. For the sake of this discussion, I'd suggest taking a look at any Heron best-of comp on Amazon. Take a listen to the samples & tell me what you think. If you think that requires no talent, I'd like to know why. If you think it does, then I'd wonder why that does but not rap.

This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
  Kimber Kable  

Follow Ups Full Thread
Follow Ups
You can not post to an archived thread.

[ Top Top of Page ] [ Contact Us ] [ Support/Wish List ] [ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
[ General ] [ Speakers ] [ Tubes ] [ Vinyl ] [ Digital ] [ Hi-Rez ] [ Video Asylum ] [ Cables ] [ Tweaks/DIY ] [ Music ] [ Films ]