|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
In Reply to: You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension posted by Norm Strong on November 17, 2002 at 15:36:21:
I've been down this road before, and I'm not going down it again. I've described how I interpret the quote. You're certainly entitled to your interpretation. Others, if they care, can judge for themselves.
Follow Ups:
As Norm says, you are reading much too much into the little section from the interview with Toole. What you want just is not there; for that matter, I would wish for more detail. Making distinctions does not indicate more than possibilities.Hardly anyone denies that different cables and interconnects may make an audible difference under some circumstances. You have consistently refused to tell me who holds such a position, much less providing any refences, apparently relying on your overall impressions. You keep beating this dead horse (you are not alone in this). However, to reason that because there may be a difference that therefore there must be an audible difference in your system is not valid. One cannot validly reason from possibility to actuality.
I personally see no reason to have equipment where in normal use a line level signal is likely to be much affected by a difference in interconnects. Of course, phono is a different matter, as the FR of many cartridges is aubstantially affected by the capacitance--something I would rather adjust in the preamp. See: I told you there were some conditions where a difference is likely, and I even gave you a well-known example!
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Hardly anyone denies that different cables and interconnects may make an audible difference under some circumstances. You have consistently refused to tell me who holds such a position, much less providing any refences, apparently relying on your overall impressions. You keep beating this dead horse (you are not alone in this).
There are numerous instances on AR where people are unqualifiedly advised that they are wasting their money if they buy cables at any place other than Home Depot, Radio Shack, WalMart, etc. I view that type of advice to be a statement that audible differences do not exist.In addition, a while back, a poster at AR said:
If you do believe they are better, buy nicer cables and YOU will hear a difference..
Mtrycrafts responded:
No. They will only perceive a difference. Hearing and perceiving are not the same events.
http://forums14.consumerreview.com/crforum?14@121.OKxlaCmueEi^974124@.ef86ead/19
He is clearly stating that the only differences between cables are based on perception, not actual hearing. He does not allow for the possibility that the differences perceived were actually heard. Mtrycrafts is generally pretty careful to say anything that will allow someone to pin him down on his beliefs, but occasionally he slips and reveals his true belief on wires.Also see:
http://forums14.consumerreview.com/crforum?13@121.OKxlaCmueEi^974216@.ef8edb8/56
and
http://forums14.consumerreview.com/crforum?13@121.OKxlaCmueEi^974216@.ef8cbea/2
The AR cable forum is far too sluggish for me to look for more.
However, to reason that because there may be a difference that therefore there must be an audible difference in your system is not valid. One cannot validly reason from possibility to actuality.
Please point to one instance where I have ever argued that as a valid proposition?
I personally see no reason to have equipment where in normal use a line level signal is likely to be much affected by a difference in interconnects.
I'll leave it to the techies to address that issue.
So, you have found one person who expresses himself in more absolute terms, and that is Woodman.As for Mtrycrafts, you really should put the question you want to him, not look to where he is making some other point. For one thing, in the little snippet of interchange, you simply misunderstood the point Mtrycrafts was making, which simply about the difference between hearing and perceiving. It was about word usage, if you will. In other words, he pointed out to the poster that it would be better to have said that if a person really believes there is a difference, they will likely perceive one. The context of the discussion assumes a case in which there was really no audible difference.
Now, if you will look into the lists of references Mtry has supplied, you will find some that have documented differences in speaker cables (16 gauge vs. 24 gauge, 30 foot lengths), notably Laurence Greenhill, "Speaker Cables, Can You Hear the Difference," Stereo Review, August 1983, p. 46-51. He has referred to this from time to time in the past.
I suggest you deal with explicit statements on various questions, not some snippet where you think you can mind read his intent. Mtry does not deal with absolutes here, only probabilities. I have discussed this with him sufficiently on the net and in person, I think, to have a better idea of his views than you do.
You quoted me as saying:
"However, to reason that because there may be a difference that therefore there must be an audible difference in your system is not valid. One cannot validly reason from possibility to actuality."
Your reply was:
"Please point to one instance where I have ever argued that as a valid proposition?"
Did I say that you had discussed it? I do point out that you give Dr. Toole's simple division of good and "bad" cables much too much weight, and seem to regard it as an admission of audible differences between cables under ordinary circumstances. But here's something you said:
"Now everyone seems to agree that room acoustics and poorly designed loudspeakers often are extremely important considerations in the quality of audible sonic differences between systems. So if, in Toole's mind, the sonic effects of "bad" cables are on a par with the audible consequences of room acoustics and poorly designed loudspeakers, he must beleive that the audible sonic differences that can exist between certain cables can be pretty significant, at least based on what that particular quote (which, again, is the only public pronouncement of Toole that I have ever found on the issue of cables) seems to suggest."
Now, if that isn't moving from possibility to actuality, I'd like to know what is! And of course, Toole said nothing of the sort.
You want a good case where an interconnect could make a difference? Many phono cartridges are sensitive to capacitance, and interconnects can have different capacitances. I doubt that even Woodman would deny that, as it used to be quite well known and is easily measureable. Personally, I would rather adjust this in the preamp, but one could do it with interconnects. I can add 180 picofarads to the capacitance the phono cartridge sees with a switch in my preamp, and this results in a significant sloping off of the highs, something I do not usually think desirable with most recordings.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Now, if you will look into the lists of references Mtry has supplied, you will find some that have documented differences in speaker cables (16 gauge vs. 24 gauge, 30 foot lengths), notably Laurence Greenhill, "Speaker Cables, Can You Hear the Difference," Stereo Review, August 1983, p. 46-51. He has referred to this from time to time in the past.I just want to respond to this statement and then hopefully draw this to an end. I've seen this statement numerous times, but it is wholly irrelevant, because no one is arguing over this type of disparity. The real debate is whether cables of similar gauge and length can sound different. I have stated the issue that way on numerous occasions. I just get tired of writing it out.
Beyond this, this sub-thread is beginning to remind me too much of AR. I'm at fault for starting it in the first place. I believe that most of the naysayers at AR are extremely biased and narrow-minded. But that is just my opinion and it isn't worth discussing further. I will try not to bring it up again so that we can all focus on real issues.
I do however need to comment on one comment you made:
You want a good case where an interconnect could make a difference?
The only thing I want a good case for is the truth, regardless of where it leads. I am not advocating either side of the Great Cable Debate, because at the scientific level I accept that the yeasayer case has not be established through valid control testing, and until it is we all have to wait and see. Perhaps it never will be established because maybe it can't be. I don't know. I enjoy discussing these issues, but I'm not trying to pick an argument with anyone.
Well, you avoid one point. I have given examples where speaker cables make an audible difference and where interconnects can make an audible difference. These are quite intelligible on rationalist grounds, and so it is quite unfair to characterize the rationalist position as being that cables and interconnects do not make an audible difference under any circumstances. Indeed, to find those circumstances and determine how likely they are to occur is one of the goals. Another consequence is that naysayers is not a very good word to characterize the rationalists.Now, I quite easily recognize your basic position, which has been characterized in various ways. Aristotle called it wonder. Wonder is the beginning of all science and philosophy (Metaphysics I,2). One is faced with alternative trains of reasonings and opinions which seem to be authoritative and correct but which also seem incompatible with each other. From his procedure, that is what Aristotle seems to have meant by wonder. That is, you accept your perceptions about, for example, the sound of cables, but also see that there is no scientific proof that they are correct. So you are in a state of wonder.
This is not something many people find easy to understand. They feel you ought to decide one way or the other, get on with life, etc. They may interpret it as waffling or worse, and there is not much you can do about it. But this does not allow for time to process the matter, nor to find ways of dealing with the various elements. I understand this and I think mtry does as well. Some don't, and there is no use getting too upset about it.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Well, you avoid one point. I have given examples where speaker cables make an audible difference and where interconnects can make an audible difference. These are quite intelligible on rationalist grounds, and so it is quite unfair to characterize the rationalist position as being that cables and interconnects do not make an audible difference under any circumstances.I'm not avoiding anything. I'm just tired of posturing and playing word games.
I don't think your second sentence is a fair statement of my position. When we are talking about audio from a scientific perspective, I consider myself a solid "rationalist". I'm the one that started this thread with the quotes from Carl Sagan.
They feel you ought to decide one way or the other, get on with life, etc. They may interpret it as waffling or worse, and there is not much you can do about it. But this does not allow for time to process the matter, nor to find ways of dealing with the various elements. I understand this and I think mtry does as well. Some don't, and there is no use getting too upset about it.
Now that I've gotten over my ranting and raving, I want to thank you for your understanding of my position. I do believe that you and mtrycrafts understand my position, and have never been judgmental about it. I know I won't win any popularity contests on this site by saying this, but I have a lot of respect for mtrycrafts' position, even though I don't always agree with him, and I don't always agree with his approach or bedside manner (but there are certainly people here who in my opinion have far worse bedside manners that mtrycrafts).With respect to the fact that people like you, Monstrous Mike and Bruce (sorry if I've left anyone out), who regularly post at AR have decided to participate here as well, I see that as extremely positive. This forum isn't going to work, in my opinion, if we don't have all rational viewpoints strongly represented. In addition, I believe that you all are people who are responsible in the way you advance your own positions and are respectful of others (Bruce, I must say, is much like me and sometimes gets fairly worked up about certain issues - but I'm the last one that should be commenting on that type of thing).
I just want to say that regardless of some of the very spirited discussions we have had, and may have in the future, I personally welcome your participation here and certainly hope that it continues.
"advised that they are wasting their money if they buy cables at any place other than Home Depot, Radio Shack, WalMart, etc. I view that type of advice to be a statement that audible differences do not exist."I had just said the same thing in a post.Really funny to see that.:-]
nt
I think he is alluding to a long drawn out post fight on another BB where no one excepts the fact that cables can make a difference.Their point of view is that Dr.O'Toole finds there is no diff in cables.In my system cables do make a difference also.There are other components like speakers and X-overs where differences are much more apparent,but some are not shaken to even consider the issue of cables making a diff in a system whaich is beyond comprehension if you have experimented to see weather there is a diff..
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: