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In Reply to: Re: Do You guys read the HR AA? posted by john curl on November 16, 2002 at 07:44:42:
Hey I really feel the same about DBT talk ,but they do have a right to stir the water sometimes .Like a devils advocate I guess even if they are lying to themselves in believeing that everything sounds the same and such.I had read some of your previous post and do not know what you really think about DBT's,but I do know you probably have more experience of DBT's then most all the so-called authourities that think they do that post around combined.
My Q is:
Seeing that some hold Dr.O'tool in such high regard concerning DBT's.Did you ever speak to him concerning Cables.Does he hold the beleif that cables do not make a difference or are all the same?The reason I ask this is It's the glue that holds so many peoples faith in the "No difference in cable Theory"together.They seem to hold him in such high esteem that his is the last word and with out which they would not have a standing argument.
I am not obsessed with the DBT issue and I very rarely even ask a Q about it.I know there are differences and I do not feel I need a DBT test to prove it so I do not post about it.
And don't forget PT is a Lawyer so it is in his nature to debate such matters and others like I said try to play the devils advocate roll and waste space.:)L
Follow Ups:
...even if they are lying to themselves in believeing that everything sounds the same and such.I thought people who say they heard cable differences were lying to themselves. Glad to see you have the "correct" version of that story.
Seeing that some hold Dr.O'tool in such high regard concerning DBT's.Did you ever speak to him concerning Cables.Does he hold the beleif that cables do not make a difference or are all the same?
That's Dr. Toole, mister. And yes, he is held in high regard concerning DBTs. The reason he is quoted by people like me is that he has put a tremendous amount of effect into blind testing methods and has recognized that sighted testing is flawed (and has written a paper for AES on this subject).
I have third hand knowledge of his opinion on audio wires and I do hold his opinion slightly above others in this matter. Some people assess the value of opinions based on the content of the opinion and some assess based on the credibility of person. I stick mostly with the latter.
Oh, and BTW, he brought in several different speaker wires to his testing lab to make sure that he wasn't missing something by using generic speaker wire, and he wasn't....
Well it seems we disagree and I know the spelling son!I have owned a few sets of them there Canadian speakers that past through the Lab up north.Just not the great typist.I guess the fem-man-aint side in me is not well developed.Former-Marine in me I guess!All I know is that in this here house and in my Tweeked system, not SOTA but close enough for my taste, there is a marked difference in cables which I use to test.Why that is is a matter for the scientist and physicist.
I still do not buy the Validity of DBT's for reasons I have already stated.If you are a follower\disciple of the great man in the North then I hope your happy.I will trust my own ears and pay accordingly thank you.
The only thing I think we might agree on is that at some point the cost to performance ratio is absolutely proposterous,but I am no Warren Buffet either.If I were in the "cost is no object catagory" I might consider $4K cables ,but only if they were to add substantial positive change to my system.I guess I will just have to settle for my flimsy OTA Cable and Tweeked system which to my ears outperforms sytems that go for 5X the price at those Audio Salons I have past through in my travels.
Does not Mark Lev sell highend cables to which the Tool is associated with?Must just be for jewlery or the uneducated dupes that buy High End gear!
All I have in my neighborhood is New England Audio Research and Transparent Audio to go by and only one of those do I hold in high esteem(Southern Maine).Can you guess which one?Hope you and the Tool are happy together in your DBT ventures! [:-)
nt
And don't forget PT is a Lawyer so it is in his nature to debate such matters and others like I said try to play the devils advocate roll and waste space.:)LOn a personal note, I’d like to say that in my profession I get paid to advocate positions for my clients within an adversarial justice system, which, at least in theory, is designed to enable the judge and jury to arrive at just and truthful results.
Here I certainly raise questions of both subjectivists and objectivists. But I challenge you to find one instance here or at AR where I have advocated inconsistent positions on a specific issue, with the possible exception of some issue where I might have changed my mind and clearly indicated that I had in fact changed my mind.
But on the broader and much more important point, isn’t it (or at least shouldn’t it be) also in the nature of scientists to debate? Doesn’t the advancement of scientific knowledge require the critical examination of theories, hypothesis’ and test result? Isn’t the best scientist the one who is willing to intensely examine an issue from as many sides as possible? It seems to me a scientist who doggedly clings to a particular theory or viewpoint simply because he sees himself personally identified with such theory or viewpoint, in most cases serves only to impede the advancement of knowledge. Such scientists, it seems to me, are the ones most likely to take issue with anyone who attempts to examine or question their pet theory or viewpoint.
It seems to me a scientist who doggedly clings to a particular theory or viewpoint simply because he sees himself personally identified with such theory or viewpoint, in most cases serves only to impede the advancement of knowledge. Such scientists, it seems to me, are the ones most likely to take issue with anyone who attempts to examine or question their pet theory or viewpoint.Perhaps we can name this phenomenon a "Curl-ism". :--)
Alan, I've had trouble with you before, but this is amazing to me. YOU sell TWEAKS. You don't have much of a technical background, and virtually nothing that you represent will ever pass a DBT run by one of these folks. Hell, they can't even be sure of absolute polarity or differences in power amps.
You can be sure that wire break-in and AC purification will not make it through their test procedure. You had better find out who your 'fellow travelers' are, because I don't make a dime on tweaks, but you do.
Phil:
Yes,scientist do debate subjects that have to be proven,but in a more civil manner than those I have seen on another BB-AR.Seems they are just stuck in the Dr.The Tool mode ,he has already proven it and there is no sense in making it issue.They will not even test for themselves to see weather he or thier stance is correct concerning the cable theory issue.As for the Debating thing. I was pointing out to JC that you just get involved in the issue alot with those from AR over their insistance on the DBT alot as an opposeing view which to me is a waste of space.You had even stated that yourself I believe(the 7mo. thing).
They are not going to change their viewpoint no matter what might be said because the GREAT MASTER "Dr.The Tool"is a god that should not be challenged.They will not even try another set of wires to see if there is a difference.They attack anyone for even asking advice on the subject. Go to Ratshack and now Walmart is their cry!I'm surprised they don't tout Monster as being great,but then again it's more expensive!
nt
"Seeing that some hold Dr.O'tool in such high regard concerning DBT's. Did you ever speak to him concerning Cables.Does he hold the beleif that cables do not make a difference or are all the sameNo one needs to claim all cables sound the same all the time, the question is how much difference an 'audiophile' cable can make over a standard pro type of the same relative construction. Most people as the Dr. probably just don't care and use what's practical, I guess.
Dr Floyd Toole made a cheap crack about wires at an AES presentation at Dolby Labs, several years ago. Both Brian Cheney and I were sitting in the front row. I had just spoken to him at length about other matters, and he is a Double-blinder all right.
Like a devils advocate I guess even if they are lying to themselves in believeing that everything sounds the same and such.Why are you misrepresenting people's views such as this? I have been one of the most outspoken people interested in exploring the issues of DBTs, and yet I have in excess of $9,000 invested just in cables in my system.
Can you name a single person who has participated in the discussion of DBTs on this board so far who advocates the position "that everything sounds the same and such"?
I have been one of the most outspoken people interested in exploring the issues of DBTs, and yet I have in excess of $9,000 invested just in cables in my system.
Can you name a single person who has participated in the discussion of DBTs on this board so far who advocates the position "that everything sounds the same and such"?
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No,but if it gets to the point about DBT's as seen over at AR it shall.That was not meant torwards you or any other person on this BB.
I really do not see the merit in DBT's where people try distinguish differences in an unfamilar enviroment ,with unfamilar equiptment.If I try a particular Cable and don't hear something then change it out and hear an instrament that was not heard before ,is that not a difference.That happend to me today.That I do not need a DBT for.
If you now hear an instrument you did not hear before it means you were not listening closely enough the first time! Of course if you put back the old cable you will still hear that instrument. This kind of claim as proof is why some look for dbt testing. The only proof I use is if my wife in the other room can tell a difference while she is sewing:). And what is your comment about unfamiliar equipment about, is that how all dbts are done?
I do not know about that.It is not really discernable that there is something there with the other cable.I will try to see weather you are right.I am saying that the Engineer tried in vain to mask it I think by cutting it out of the track,but I could be wrong.
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