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Vintage Asylum Classic gear from yesteryear; vintage audio standing the test of time. |
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Vintage Asylum Classic gear from yesteryear; vintage audio standing the test of time. |
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In Reply to: RE: What would set the tone quality of a system posted by tube Tom on December 4, 2016 at 08:58:40:
Hi all,
I haven't been on here in a while because the business has taken all of my time. It is now about 40% rebuilding vintage gear and 60% building custom new line stages, phono preamps, and power amps. I have probably rebuilt 400+ pieces of vintage tube gear over the past decade and probably 50 new custom pieces. I have done not all, but many of the "holy grail" vintage tube power amps (including probably 70 citation II amps, Marantz 8B, some great Fishers, etc..), tube preamps (citation I, mac c20, fisher and scott, etc..), and tube integrated amps (most of the main ones including 4 or 5 of the baby EL84-based Sherwoods, Fishers, HK, Scott, etc..). So I have listened to a lot of gear.
The vintage tube preamps are fun. Not marketing here at all, but my line stage will kill them all for transparency, imaging, tonal quality, you name it. The signal paths in all the vintage preamps are very long. There were a lot of features people wanted back in the day that are really unnecessary for most people in modern systems. Sure, if you have a lot of old records you may need all the turonver and EQ settings on a citation I or other vintage preamp, but most folks only need RIAA or have gone digital on the front end. You don't need a phase or stereo / rev switch. I know it is controversial on a vintage forum, but most people don't need tone controls either. If you rebuild the tone circuits on the vintage gear they sound far better, but if you had the same preamp without any tone circuits they would sound better still. Yes, the tone circuit is out of the path on a citation I when you set the controls to flat. Other units have tone defeat, but many don't. You replace a few ceramic disc caps on old tone circuits with good film caps and it is like taking a blanket off your speakers. If that tone circuit wasn't there it would be better still.
The vintage power amps are wonderful when rebuilt, but you can build a power amp that is every bit as good with modern transformers. Vintage amps and modern amps don't sound all that different when the parts are all replaced in the vintage ones. Of course cheaper modern amps with inferior iron cannot touch a great vintage amp that has been rebuilt, but modern amps built with good iron and killer power supplies are every bit as good as the best vintage amps. Sorry, but that is the truth told by my ears in my system with numerous amps. The vintage sound is just old parts. You rebuild a citation II with all the McShane kits and add a CCS tail and it is stunning. So is the KT88 amp I build from scratch with all modern parts. I would be happy to listen to either.
The little Sherwood that is the subject of the thread is a lovely amp. Rebuilt, there are few pieces of audio gear that will give that much musical enjoyment for under $1000 AND have a decent phono section. I have heard several of those in my living room while running them in before shipping to customers. But my modern line stage and KT 88 amp is just another level up. Of course that pair costs 4X what the Sherwood does so it darn well better be a step up! My take is that you can have great modern or vintage gear, but if the vintage gear is properly rebuilt then it sounds much better. People will roll tubes to change the sound of their gear, but if they rebuild the power supplies of their vintage gear and change key signal path parts to get rid of all the mediocre old caps that are way out of spec then suddenly their vintage gear sounds far better with an average tube set than the old stuff did with the best tubes. I don't think there is so much of a vintage sound. Most of it is old out of spec parts.
You rebuild most of the vintage gear and it sounds like modern gear with the exception of vintage preamps, which for the most part, will not quite approach the transparency of modern preamps with shorter signal paths. No, I am not talking about cheapo modern preamps, but rather, good modern preamps. Vintage integrated amps, when rebuilt, are very good value and usually will make for a great system on a budget. Many of the vintage integrated amps are held back by their preamp sections with all the tone controls and switches though. The same integrated with a simpler front end would be more transparent.
My 2 cents, feel free to disagree. My point is that there are many paths to audio enlightenment, both vintage and modern, but I really don't think there is that much of a vintage sound. Just tired old parts and long signal paths in the preamps..... Feel free to flame away!
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Follow Ups
- RE: What would set the tone quality of a system - dls123 21:46:21 12/04/16 (0)
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