In Reply to: RE: Pretty much everything you said here is wrong. posted by hahax@verizon.net on November 27, 2016 at 21:21:31:
"For what it's worth both Gordon and Harry were trying to get as close to the live experience as possible in reproduction."
Two things here.
1.Stereo playback does not involve "reproduction." It does not "reproduce" anything. Stereo playback produces a unique and new acoustic waveform.
2."The live experience?" There is no such thing as "THE live experience."
"That's why Harry called his magazine The Absolute Sound which he stated in issue 1 and many times after. And that was Gordon's attitude also which he also stated in the magazine and I often discussed with him."
If they were alive today I would have enjoyed discussing this issue with them. But as they are not here to engage in the discussion I don't see the relevance of two former audio journal editors' opinions on this subject. BUT...if you can show me any quotes in which they actually say the goal of stereo recording and playback is an accurate "RECONSTRUCTION" of the original waveform from the original acoustic event then I will concede that they actually believed that.
"Neither would say we were there or even expected to get there knowing the limitations of our gear."
It has nothing to do with the limitations of audio gear. It has to do with how stereo recording and playback actually works and what it was designed to actually do.
"But that was the goal even if they never got there."
They may or may not have thought it was *their* goal. It certainly was not the goal of the people who invented and developed stereo recording and playback. Again, we are talking about an accurate *RECONSTRUCTION* of the original waveform of the original acoustic event.
"Some of your comments are probably why Gordon was interested in surround sound."
I would bet he was interested in surround sound because as a subset of stereo recording and playback it may offer a more pleasing aural illusion of spaciousness and imaging.
"I suspect they'd agree that audio is an illusion. But the goal is to make it so the illusion can almost fool you so you can make believe once in a while."
OK that is what i have been saying all along.
"But they would call that an attempt at reproduction and so would I."
But it isn't. And this is a critical issue in understanding audio. In audio we do have attempts to accurately "reproduce" an audio signal. That was one of the ideas behind digital media, that it could more accurately record and reproduce the signal it was fed than any analog technology. So, IMO, it's pretty important talk about "reproduction" when we actually mean reproduction. A convincing aural illusion of realism is a different thing. calling that "reproduction" only creates confusion and gross misunderstandings about the role of accuracy in audio.
"Other wise what is the goal of high end audio with its costly, intricate gear. What are your targets?"
My targets are aesthetic excellence. Here is a question for you. Let's say you have a really crappy recording of music you love. Let's say the imaging is ping pongy and mostly located at the speakers and the balance is ear bleed bright. Do you want to hear that accurately or would you like it fixed with imaging that is more spacious and away from the speakers and a balance that actually sounds good? do you as a listener serve this ideal of accuracy or does audio serve you and your aesthetic values?
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Follow Ups
- RE: Pretty much everything you said here is wrong. - Analog Scott 21:40:24 11/27/16 (66)
- RE: Pretty much everything you said here is wrong. - hahax@verizon.net 06:08:31 11/28/16 (65)
- "The live experience" There is no such thing - Analog Scott 10:27:24 11/28/16 (64)
- RE: "The live experience" There is no such thing - ahendler 06:20:13 11/29/16 (1)
- RE: "The live experience" There is no such thing - Analog Scott 06:32:09 11/29/16 (0)
- RE: "The live experience" There is no such thing - hahax@verizon.net 10:38:17 11/28/16 (61)
- here is a thought experiment for you. Lets start by looking at accuracy in audio - Analog Scott 11:30:39 11/28/16 (3)
- Goosebump quotient. Thrill of hearing new, better things in a favorite recording... nt - Smelly_Socks 20:28:16 11/28/16 (0)
- RE: here is a thought experiment for you. Lets start by looking at accuracy in audio - hahax@verizon.net 12:28:09 11/28/16 (1)
- RE: here is a thought experiment for you. Lets start by looking at accuracy in audio - Analog Scott 13:05:26 11/28/16 (0)
- RE: "The live experience" There is no such thing - Analog Scott 11:22:41 11/28/16 (56)
- RE: "The live experience" There is no such thing - hahax@verizon.net 12:26:24 11/28/16 (2)
- RE: "The live experience" There is no such thing - Analog Scott 13:01:15 11/28/16 (1)
- RE: "The live experience" There is no such thing - hahax@verizon.net 06:17:29 11/29/16 (0)
- Sure there is - E-Stat 12:25:52 11/28/16 (52)
- And hearing his systems convinced me that we could get close at times. - Analog Scott 13:11:04 11/28/16 (18)
- How? - E-Stat 13:29:25 11/28/16 (17)
- RE: How? - Analog Scott 14:24:50 11/28/16 (16)
- RE: How? - E-Stat 14:49:26 11/28/16 (15)
- Three dimensional space - Analog Scott 17:30:20 11/28/16 (14)
- RE: Three dimensional space - E-Stat 19:01:09 11/28/16 (13)
- RE: Three dimensional space - Analog Scott 19:20:59 11/28/16 (12)
- RE: Three dimensional space - morricab 07:29:51 12/01/16 (6)
- RE: Three dimensional space - A.Wayne 10:02:22 12/06/16 (2)
- EQing? - Analog Scott 13:40:23 12/06/16 (1)
- RE: EQing? - Inmate51 21:32:21 12/31/16 (0)
- RE: Three dimensional space - Analog Scott 08:00:28 12/01/16 (2)
- RE: Three dimensional space - morricab 12:47:29 12/01/16 (1)
- RE: Three dimensional space - Analog Scott 14:35:18 12/01/16 (0)
- RE: Three dimensional space - E-Stat 05:47:33 11/29/16 (4)
- I have quite a few recordings that work to the contrary. - Analog Scott 08:10:42 11/29/16 (3)
- RE: I have quite a few recordings that work to the contrary. - E-Stat 08:24:54 11/29/16 (2)
- RE: I have quite a few recordings that work to the contrary. - Analog Scott 14:34:20 11/29/16 (1)
- "I prefer less realistic more palpable imaging" - E-Stat 15:00:28 11/29/16 (0)
- RE: Sure there is - Analog Scott 12:58:07 11/28/16 (32)
- RE: Sure there is - E-Stat 13:23:49 11/28/16 (31)
- "Any facsimile of a live experience works for me." - Analog Scott 13:29:48 11/28/16 (30)
- Fortunately - E-Stat 13:35:12 11/28/16 (29)
- " That assertion has nothing to do with either HP's concept or what I use as a reference." - Analog Scott 14:30:36 11/28/16 (28)
- RE: " That assertion has nothing to do with either HP's concept or what I use as a reference." - ahendler 06:27:20 11/29/16 (6)
- RE: " That assertion has nothing to do with either HP's concept or what I use as a reference." - Analog Scott 10:10:45 11/29/16 (5)
- And yet... - E-Stat 11:01:43 11/29/16 (1)
- RE: And yet... - Analog Scott 13:13:45 11/29/16 (0)
- RE: " That assertion has nothing to do with either HP's concept or what I use as a reference." - ahendler 10:35:41 11/29/16 (2)
- "I know crap when I hear it" - Analog Scott 13:17:43 11/29/16 (1)
- RE: "I know crap when I hear it" - ahendler 14:42:31 11/29/16 (0)
- RE: " That assertion has nothing to do with either HP's concept or what I use as a reference." - E-Stat 14:42:08 11/28/16 (20)
- RE: "That assertion has nothing to do with either HP's concept or what I use as a reference." - Analog Scott 17:20:44 11/28/16 (19)
- "It was painfully overloaded by the piano." - E-Stat 19:04:25 11/28/16 (18)
- RE: "It was painfully overloaded by the piano." - Analog Scott 08:38:18 12/01/16 (17)
- RE: "It was painfully overloaded by the piano." - E-Stat 10:18:43 12/01/16 (16)
- RE: "It was painfully overloaded by the piano." - Analog Scott 14:40:50 12/01/16 (15)
- RE: "It was painfully overloaded by the piano." - E-Stat 15:24:45 12/01/16 (14)
- RE: "It was painfully overloaded by the piano." - Analog Scott 16:10:57 12/01/16 (13)
- I'm going to end - E-Stat 16:21:16 12/01/16 (12)
- I figured as much - Analog Scott 16:36:22 12/01/16 (11)
- Once you turned - E-Stat 06:33:34 12/03/16 (10)
- Still dodging the questions. Nice try - Analog Scott 09:01:37 12/03/16 (9)
- I couldn't care less about your question - E-Stat 09:42:18 12/03/16 (8)
- Then why do you stay in the conversation? - Analog Scott 10:03:46 12/03/16 (7)
- Remind you - E-Stat 10:19:29 12/03/16 (6)
- Yet another post and no discussion about the subject. I admire your commitment to avoiding the subect - Analog Scott 10:34:05 12/03/16 (5)
- Subject was over long ago! - E-Stat 10:40:54 12/03/16 (4)
- and yet you keep posting and keep avoiding it at the same time - Analog Scott 10:52:01 12/03/16 (3)
- I enjoy humor! - E-Stat 11:06:30 12/03/16 (2)
- I enjoy humor too. - Analog Scott 11:34:26 12/03/16 (1)
- RE: I enjoy humor too. - E-Stat 12:03:23 12/03/16 (0)