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Inexpensive TT

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Posted on January 18, 2017 at 10:03:15
Kindablue
Audiophile

Posts: 1072
Joined: August 7, 2003
 Curious after contacting an audio company this question(about there carts) and irritation of the response from said company.MY TT is 20 years old roughly now I paid 450 dollars for it which was hard to come up with. When I asked the cart manufacturer about there cart they said well beings you have a"Budget" TT So what that did was got me to thinking what do people spend on there tables. I enyoy mine very much but felt a bit kicked or am I just sensitive to my audio set up?
I am not ashemed of my set up /done.

Kindablue

 

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RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 18, 2017 at 10:22:30
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10912
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 It's not what you paid but what you chose to buy 20 years ago for $450 that counts. Considering when you bought it and how much you paid, you might own a highly coveted nearly "vintage" turntable, by current standards. Regardless, why would you or should you be ashamed of anything?

People generally spend what they feel comfortable spending. That's a complex formula, and the solution is different for different people.

 

Care to divulge which Inexpensive TT?, posted on January 18, 2017 at 10:26:18
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15168
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 My turntable cost me $400 + $40 shipping when I bought it, used, however.

I've had it for 17 years now.

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 18, 2017 at 10:33:10
coffee-phil
Audiophile

Posts: 1444
Location: Shingle Springs CA
Joined: January 7, 2010
 Hi Kind of Blue,

I don't know what you have, but 20 years ago I would expect $450 would have bought a very decent turntable. I would expect for that price even today you could get a good turntable.

In ~1975 I bought a new B&O Beogram 3000 for $300 complete with an SP12 cartridge. I know there are some B&O haters, but I think it is a pretty good turntable.

Phil

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 18, 2017 at 10:33:50
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 The last time I bought a turntable new was in the late 70's when I bought a Sansui table with an ADC cartridge on clearance for around $60. My current LP-!2/Grace 707 cost $25.25 at a thrift store, with a note that it needed repair. I bought a new belt, springs, grommets and a felt pad. With a Sure M97xe, I think I have a couple hundred dollars in it. You probably won't get a deal like that. That was kind of a once in a lifetime thing, but used is the way to go. If they are not going to support you, why should you support them?

Dave

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 18, 2017 at 10:37:04
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 I think it is a good table too, with a great cartridge. Unfortunately, a new cartridge will set you back a pretty penny, but at least you can buy a new cartridge.

Dave

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 18, 2017 at 10:38:48
Diogenes
Audiophile

Posts: 315
Joined: February 17, 2014
 what's the tt and what's the rest of your system?

 

That must have been a thrift store in a real upscale neighborhood!, posted on January 18, 2017 at 10:58:04
alaskahiatt
Audiophile

Posts: 7508
Joined: December 9, 2000
Contributor
  Since: November 1, 2005
 The best turntables I have found at a thrift store were an Empire 698 and a Technics SL-Q3. My best turntable finds have been at estate sales. You were definitely lucky for the table and the arm.

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 18, 2017 at 10:59:10
6bq5
Audiophile

Posts: 4393
Location: SF Bay
Joined: August 16, 2001
 Many years ago, I sprung for an expensive cartridge- and had it installed on my then TT - a Thorens TD-160 (IIRC)-
the Cart was a Monster Cable Alpha - 1, probalby around $300-400 - as much as - if not more than the TT had cost-
was is a "good" match-
I liked the sound - and enjoyed it for many years-
would I buy an expensive cart again - yes, especially if I liked the sound-
does the value of a cart have to equal the value of the TT? - why?
If the dealer is providing extra attitude - you may wish to shop elsewhere...
Happy Listening

 

You should list your system! /nt\, posted on January 18, 2017 at 11:44:03
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 18, 2017 at 11:51:15
BillH
Audiophile

Posts: 3913
Location: Baton Rouge
Joined: December 23, 1999
 Just bear in mind that almost the entire marketing paradigm of today's High End is based on making hobbyists feel inadequate about the capabilities of their systems.

 

Hi-end dealers with an attitude?, posted on January 18, 2017 at 12:46:18
Mr. Dick Hertz
 I am shocked to hear that!

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 18, 2017 at 14:00:42
coffee-phil
Audiophile

Posts: 1444
Location: Shingle Springs CA
Joined: January 7, 2010
 Hi Dave,

Isn't that the truth? I'm always on the lookout for re-tippers and good deals for styli on eBay. I even had a bad stylus re-tipped with a 3 mill stylus for 78s.

My motor became problematic so I went to a brushless DC motor (floppy drive motor) so I can play records from 16 2/3 rpm to 80 RPM.

Phil

 

RE: That must have been a thrift store in a real upscale neighborhood!, posted on January 18, 2017 at 14:42:54
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 Actually it was a dive neighborhood in which I usually only find records. I can't imagine how it got there or how it remained intact until I found it. It took a lot of fiddling to get it to bounce right.

I remember the SL-Q3 from my college days. It and the Empire are good finds.

Dave

 

Its not about what other people think ..., posted on January 18, 2017 at 14:57:06
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13134
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 If your system brings you pleasure, that is all that matters.

PERIOD.

Dean.




reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

Yep..., posted on January 18, 2017 at 15:02:52
slapshot
Audiophile

Posts: 2248
Joined: January 9, 2006
 ...just because Reelsmith has a crappy turntable doesn't mean he can't enjoy it! :) YES, I'M JUST KIDDING! :)


P.S. I miss WTF (which turntable friday).

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 18, 2017 at 15:07:41
PAR
 Looking at USA inflation between 1997 and today that $450 is worth around $675 today. Which is a fair price for a new turntable of audiophile quality at what is now known as entry level. So I don't think that the cartridge company were necessarily out of line in their description but it may be that the cartridge that you were interested in may be a mismatch in some kind of way. Usually turntables under a certain sum new come as a complete unit including the tonearm and the latter may be considered as a qualitative mismatch where some expensive cartridges are concerned particularly where ultimate bearing quality and adjustability are concerned.

Are there good new turntables at around that current price equivalent today? Of course, some Pro-ject and MMF models spring to mind. So if you bought an equivalent for $450 back then you did well. If it sounded good then and has been well maintained then it will sound good now.

You say that you enjoy your turntable and that is really all that counts. I would just accept that it probably isn't the last word but that isn't anything to be ashamed of as you seem to realise. We mostly all put up with some kind of compromise compared to the ultimate components, mainly because we can't afford them and/or don't have enough room to house them. This affects us irrespective of how much we have spent (excluding any multi-millionaires out there). Just carry on having fun with it and consider a different cartridge. At the end of the day it is what an audio system delivers to your ears that counts not its theoretical technical ability or its potential ability to impress the neighbours (who don't care anyway).

"what do people spend on there tables". It seems that most postings so far avoid answering this. My personal answer is around $6,000 at today's prices excluding carts. That is probably above average.

NB: It would help us if we could be let into what the turntable that you have and the cartridge that you were investigating are.

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 18, 2017 at 15:17:39
PAR
 Just to put that $300 in perspective, in 1975 a brand new Linn LP12 was 160 gbp including tax ($200-250?). So that B&O was a pricey item.

 

I miss it too ..., posted on January 18, 2017 at 15:24:31
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13134
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 Just not enough time on Fridays and I ran out of ideas.

I'll do my best to post another in the near future.

Thanks for remembering.

I realize I am much less active here.

Sometimes life gets in the way of life.

Dean.




reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

Exactllye what 'cheap-assed' budget TT do you have???, posted on January 18, 2017 at 16:17:28
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 Just kidding. :-)

$450 twenty years ago is not exactly hi-end turntable pricing and yes, perhaps a 'budget' TT to some posting here.

Seem to recall VPI sold a TT back in the day for near to $1000 and they didn't consider it a sub-par 'budget' table.

Also be interesting to know what cartridge you were asking about? Guessing it was not a 'budget' cartridge?







First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 18, 2017 at 16:48:46
coffee-phil
Audiophile

Posts: 1444
Location: Shingle Springs CA
Joined: January 7, 2010
 Hi Par,

I suppose you are right. It was a bit of a stretch for me. I probably could have had a Pioneer PL115 with a Shure V15III for less. I'm guessing it would perform as well as the Beogram. Not much regret however as I think the B&O looks great. Actually I think the Pioneer looks good as well. I suppose I can't own every turntable which I think looks good.

Phil

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 18, 2017 at 17:28:03
PAR
 Everything in that B&O 3000 range e.g. the Beomaster amp looked wonderful. I think that this was the era of the finest B&O design combining elegance with a kind of reassuring visual reference to laboratory equipment.

Sadly later they seem to have gone for style over substance for much of their offering and have largely fallen out of the audiophile market's sights (save for some interesting costly flagship loudspeakers).

 

My cheapest is a Dual 1009 that I got for $2 that still plays my 78s nicely and my most..., posted on January 18, 2017 at 18:41:58
J. S. Bach
Audiophile

Posts: 9578
Location: Chester, SC
Joined: November 28, 2001
Contributor
  Since: June 29, 2004
 ...expensive is a ScottRT-modded SL1600MK2 at $400 or so that still is my "daily driver". I also recently got an SL-B2 for $15 that is reasonably good back-up/second-system table.


Later Gator,
Dave
Find more about Weather in Chester, SC

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 18, 2017 at 21:03:35
gordguide
Audiophile

Posts: 302
Joined: January 20, 2002
 There are plenty of relatively inexpensive turntables that offer good performance, and many second hand tables that offer excellent performance without entering the four figure barrier.

Moreover, the quality of the turntable is irrelevant to a cartridge's performance ... it's the quality of the tonearm that matters. With an RB-250 or similar, you could install virtually any cartridge in that arm and expect excellent performance. A few hundred dollars worth of tonearm, retail.

Price and Performance are not, and never have been, equal. Related? Sure. But if it were that easy, only snobs would have good HiFi.

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 19, 2017 at 05:24:51
BillH
Audiophile

Posts: 3913
Location: Baton Rouge
Joined: December 23, 1999
 Yes, I recall that around that time I bought a Harman Kardon ST8 turntable in preference to the Linn, which was only about 50 dollars more.

Still kicking the old butt.

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 19, 2017 at 06:05:13
Kindablue
Audiophile

Posts: 1072
Joined: August 7, 2003
 The TT is a Music Hall MMF-5 bought new at least 20 years ago so old it was the one that has a glass platter. The cart I was and will get is a Ortofon 2MM Red $100 bucks I can afford that. Arms I know nothing about but am willing to learn. I believe with my limited knowledge that a new cart and have the TT set up better it will improve my sound. Also have a Yaquin 23 B that I run instead of going thru my Pas 3X all other equipment is vintage tube amps and speakers. I come here because of the knowledge that is here and I don't get beat up for being of limited knowledge and disabled.
Which makes everything 100 times harder to get done because I can't physically do it myself. But the loss of health was for a good cause.
Thank you all again. Hey we all love music that is why we try to get the most out of it right?
kindablue

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 19, 2017 at 07:49:46
PAR
 Great because this gives me a chance to have a little rave about the Ortofon 2M Red. The top of the line Black gets lots of deserved audiophile mileage but the Red is also a real star IMO.

A couple of years ago my friend bought a used Rega Planar (1,2 or 3 - can't remember, but an early one) as a present for his stepson and asked me to fit a cartridge to it. He turned up with an Ortofon Red. Duly fitted I checked it out through my system. At the time both I and my friend were running multi-thousand dollar Lyras in our respective systems. The Red started to play and we looked at each other and simultaneously said "Wow". Even straight out of the box we were amazed at just how much of the performance of our v. expensive rigs it offered ( with the Rega , of course). It got me to regard the 2M range highly and I have since bought one of them for myself (the 2M Mono SE cart).

The Red is not arm fussy and is a breeze to install. I cannot imagine that you will have anything other than a great time.

On the disabilty front I guess I now have a small one of my own as I have lost the sight in my right eye and the left one isn't that great. Makes fitting cartridges bloody hard! And typing :-( .

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 19, 2017 at 07:53:16
TubeDriver
Audiophile

Posts: 794
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 16, 2007
 Your MMF-5 is a fine music maker, sort of in the same range as the lower level Rega models. It should should sound very good provided it is correctly set up. It might be considered an entry level component in "audiophile" circles but it is still much better than lots of cheap, mass market stuff.

I don't know where you reside but if you have a disability and have difficulty setting up your cartridge, I bet someone here would be happy to stop by and set it up for no charge? I am in the DC metro area and would be happy to bring my Feickert alignment rig/digital VTF scale over to make sure your new cartridge is properly installed and aligned, if you live within an hour drive of this area?

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 19, 2017 at 09:36:39
coffee-phil
Audiophile

Posts: 1444
Location: Shingle Springs CA
Joined: January 7, 2010
 Hi PAR(A),

I think you described the look of the era pretty well. As I think about it, that is probably what drew me to the machine. The 4002 is really what I was lusting for.

Phil

 

RE: Depends on what is is, posted on January 19, 2017 at 09:44:00
Condorsat
Audiophile

Posts: 1909
Location: NE Ohio
Joined: January 13, 2003
 What's expensive?

When it comes to audio blogs, stereo magazine world ... etc. I've always refereed to my stuff as budget or entry level.

When a guest (Joe Public) drops by ... it's "you a DJ or a collector?" "you one of those audiophiles".

Just a matter of perspective. To Bill Gates ... a multimillionaire is just a Piker.

 

RE: Nicely done, there are some really good people here (nt), posted on January 19, 2017 at 09:59:27
slider
Audiophile

Posts: 298
Joined: September 13, 2010
 nt

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 20, 2017 at 15:10:23
MannyE
Audiophile

Posts: 2088
Location: Miami Beach
Joined: March 4, 2001
 That's the same exact turntable I have. It's not an entry level turntable IMO but rather an entry into the high end of turntables.

That turntable originally came with the Goldring 1012GX MM cart. Go see the price of a new one. The stylus alone costs over $300. It's not entry level at all.

It is a gateway drug though. :)

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 20, 2017 at 15:44:02
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011
 You have to remember that, alignment issues notwithstanding, cartridges sound different in every system because of the mechanical and electrical interactions and components so cost is no indicator of the pleasure you may or may not get when installed in your system.
Written responses are always subject to interpretation of the "tone". I don't know what cartridge you were eyeing up, but it is possible that they were actually trying to be helpful in suggesting that (for whatever assumptions they make about the rest of your system), that the money you spend wouldn't yield the full performance capability.
However, you are at liberty to spend whatever you feel is necessary on your cartridge. It doesn't matter how much the deck COST it is how well engineered it is and whether enough of the fundamentals are good enough to allow the cartridge to perform at its best. They may well feel that the cartridge of a certain price would be a "waste" in a given turntable/arm configuration and were just blunt.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 20, 2017 at 21:45:00
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 Hi Anthony,

If you look at his response below, he was looking to buy a $100 Ortofon MM cartridge. I can't imagine that spending $100 on a cartridge would be overkill for even the cheapest turntable, but who knows what really transpired. However, I would think his Music Hall MMF-5 could benefit from a more expensive cartridge should he choose to buy one.

Best regards,
John Elison

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 21, 2017 at 07:51:03
Kindablue
Audiophile

Posts: 1072
Joined: August 7, 2003
 So Gord is it possible to get an arm for my 20 year old Music Hall MMF 5 and be able to change out the one I have now and be able to use several carts to my liking until I get the tone I really want or is my table not capable of making the arm switch?

Thanks for your knowledge and input.

Kindablue

 

RE: You should list your system! /nt\, posted on January 21, 2017 at 12:29:26
Kindablue
Audiophile

Posts: 1072
Joined: August 7, 2003
 John I did list my system a while back.
Kindablue

 

RE: You should list your system! /nt\, posted on January 21, 2017 at 13:18:57
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 Well, it's not there now!

If you click on the letter (A) behind my name, you will see a web-page with a link to my system's description. When I click on your name, there is no such link. Most of us list our systems so that others can better answer our questions by knowing our audio equipment.

Good luck,
John Elison

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 21, 2017 at 13:37:18
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011
 OK that does make their response a little surprising! The arm looks a reasonable design and has VTA adjustment so I see nothing to justify their response. With careful alignment I would consider a 2M Bronze to be an extremely reasonable pairing with this deck or a 2M Black. I don't understand why they would sneer at the MMF-5 at all.
This just highlights the level of snobbery that seems to rule the Audio world which is disappointing.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: Inexpensive TT, posted on January 26, 2017 at 09:40:34
MannyE
Audiophile

Posts: 2088
Location: Miami Beach
Joined: March 4, 2001
 I appreciate the offer! I would have you over just for booze and tunes! I have my local hi-fi shop go through the turntable every few years to make sure everything is still ship-shape.

Thanks to Mr. Fremer and his online videos, I've learned how to set up a turntable pretty well, but I still don't have the higher end tools. Considering the cost of professional setup, learning how to do it is a handy skill and the tools would probably pay for themselves in a year or two. Plus it would be a great way to help out fellow enthusiasts. I would have to be paid in beer, whiskey, wine, cider or mead. :)

 

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