Technics SP15 vs Linn LP12

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Posted on October 20, 2016 at 14:22:02

Ross
Audiophile

Posts: 1814
Joined: January 24, 2000

Over the past few months, I have used a new (to me) TT system....Technics SP15/AT1503mkII. My purchase was with an eye towards having a dedicated mono deck. While looking for a suitable single coil mono cartridge, I have played a variety of MM cartridges (Empire 2000Z 2000T EDR9). Among the 3 cartridges, I prefer the 2000Z body running the 2000T stylus. I have taken the time to tweak, adjust alignment, adjust arm height etc. The table/cartridge combo does some things very well, like strong bass and speed stability, along with almost holographic imaging of some instruments. On the other hand, soundstage width is less than what I am used to, and image placement is less specific. At no time have I just sat and listened to this combo with a relaxed smile on my face.

To recalibrate my ears, and to take a break, I went back to my Linn LP12/ AT33-MLOCC/Lundahl SUT combo (easy as swapping wires). And my smile came back. I was greeted by a wide soundstage, with very specific image placement, and a wonderfully natural clarity. I will listen some more, but it already has me rethinking the use of the Technics TT.

Is there really that much of a difference ?

Best,

Ross

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RE: Technics SP15 vs Linn LP12

caligari

12:49:28 10/23/16

Thanks All- Yeah I know; Variables

Ross

11:52:29 10/21/16

a slight worble to sustained piano notes and single plucked guitar strings

Lew

19:27:06 10/22/16

...

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RE: Technics SP15 vs Linn LP12

caligari

12:49:28 10/23/16

Thanks All- Yeah I know; Variables

Ross

11:52:29 10/21/16

a slight worble to sustained piano notes and single plucked guitar strings

Lew

19:27:06 10/22/16

All useful discourse nevertheless...

mr.bear

12:04:21 10/21/16

Many like the V15-III with a Jico stylus

Ross

08:45:27 10/22/16

RE: Can't answer meaningfully

mr.bear

00:24:45 10/21/16

I had an SP-25 and an LP12 and much preferred the LP12 as well....

viridian

18:13:30 10/20/16

Maybe not so "unobtainium"

Lew

08:53:56 10/21/16

MN6042 chips; there are three in the SP15......

viridian

12:30:56 10/21/16

RE: MN6042 chips; there are three in the SP15......

Lew

18:48:29 10/21/16

RE: SP25

M3 lover

10:35:16 10/21/16

RE: Technics SP15 vs Linn LP12

Kirk57

15:15:03 10/20/16

Dunno about SP15 but...

kuma

15:01:36 10/20/16

Dunno about SP15 but..., posted on October 20, 2016 at 15:01:36

kuma
Audiophile

Posts: 10273
Location: IN
Joined: July 8, 2001

I've got to listen to the new Techncics SL1200GAE? ( this is he one with a magnesium tone arm ) at the Rocky show and I picked out an LP which happens to be a mono Ella Fitzgerald. A chap who was tending the room put on a mono cartridge ( Ortofon, IIRC ) and I was amased how musical it was. Not at all like the Technics DD tables of the past.

At the show, I preferred it over the VPI's Avenger direct drive. I thought *re-born* Technics 1200 GAE was well worth the price tag of 4k. It took literally a minute or so to swap the cart. and adjust VTF. This room turned out to be one of more enjoyable yet sanely priced room. It would be interesting to compare it with my mid spec. Sondek.
( Incidentally the other end of scale surprisingly sounding good at the show was the 38k Kronos table! )

I think that in order to do a fair comparison, the cartridge at least needs to be the same.

RE: Technics SP15 vs Linn LP12, posted on October 20, 2016 at 15:15:03
Kirk57 Audiophile Posts: 606 Location: Chicago's North Shore Joined: December 9, 2008	Pretty much impossible to say given that the TT, arms and cartridges are all different between the two setups.

I had an SP-25 and an LP12 and much preferred the LP12 as well...., posted on October 20, 2016 at 18:13:30
viridian	As an added bonus, you can update the LP12 or return it to working condition if anything breaks. The SP15 has three ICs that are simply unobtainium. Not so the SP25 which is basically the motor from a 1200.

RE: Can't answer meaningfully, posted on October 21, 2016 at 00:24:45

mr.bear
Audiophile

Posts: 4167
Joined: November 13, 2001

...the setups are so different, all you can do is trust your ears here.
That said, the Technics is a superb DD table by all accounts. With that A-T arm it's a true broadcast caliber rig and highly sought after. The arm has a high effective mass however and is more suited to a low-compliance cart. I think it would be sweet with a low-output MC. The Empire has a relatively high compliance (per VE) and might not reveal its peak performance in such a massive arm.
I preface the following with the disclaimer that opinions from 30+ years ago are largely irrelevant, but I had a chance to audition a Linn LP-12 against my former big Denon DP-2000 rig and my conclusions were similar to yours, The DD Denon had it over the Linn for silent background and a sense of pace. The Linn sounded fine and I'd have taken either home in s hot minute. I did stick with Denons but that was largely due to a long-term commitment to low-output, low-compliance MC's and Denon's superb build quality.
If I were a rich man... I'd build a big custom base for the Technics, mount a fine MC on the A-T, and add a second arm for the mono rig. The mono nuts seem to love the Lenco arms and they are pretty!

Maybe not so "unobtainium", posted on October 21, 2016 at 08:53:56

Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000

First, I don't know exactly what three ICs you're referring to. So far as I know, at least for the SP10 Mk2 and Mk3, there is one irreplaceable IC which I am too lazy to look up but which goes by part #MNXXX (where the Xs represent a numerical designation). The functions of this IC can now be replaced by a tiny PCB containing discrete SMDs, the same size as the NOS IC, that has been developed by JP Jones in NYC. Furthermore, JP's creation works a bit better than the original IC to control platter speed, based on measurements (not listening tests only). The cost of the IC and its installation by JP is only a few hundred dollars, which makes lots of sense if you own a Mk2 or Mk3. I don't know what's up with the SP25, but I would have thought it shares parts in common with the Mk2, at least. In fairness, the SP25 is a nice turntable but by no means does it represent Technics' best effort. If it's fundamentally like the Mk2 and Mk3 in regards to speed control, JPs PCB ought to be able to restore operation to SP25s (and SP15s) that have had a similar failure.

RE: SP25, posted on October 21, 2016 at 10:35:16

M3 lover
Audiophile

Posts: 6604
Location: SW Mich
Joined: May 29, 2005
Contributor
Since: July 4, 2007

This is now off topic from the OP, but in case anyone else is interested, look into this.

From all I've read on the SP series (I own a 10 Mk2A and a 15), they both have ICs which are no longer in production. So if one fails you'll need to find a donor table or a substitute part such as Lew identified. All the more reason to replace those old electrolytic caps before one causes a failure and takes out an IC.

The SP25 on the other hand was based on the SP1200 series and so includes basically the same parts. The difference here was Technics offering an armless version so customers could choose their own.

A good Technics tech should be able to verify this.

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing, if you can fake that you've got it made." Groucho

Thanks All- Yeah I know; Variables, posted on October 21, 2016 at 11:52:29

Ross
Audiophile

Posts: 1814
Joined: January 24, 2000

Comparing high compliance MM to moderate compliance MC. Sprung chassis vs no chassis. BD vs DD.

But the differences were immediate and comparatively large. I did not expect that.

The SP15 delivers better speed stability. On occasion I have heard a slight worble to sustained piano notes and single plucked guitar strings via the Linn that I did not hear via the SP15. I have begun to investigate PS upgrades for the Linn (Valhalla in place now) to improve stability.

MM vs MC has always been a contentious debate. I am very happy with the AT33 I now have, and I have submitted a Denon 103D to Soundsmith for a ruby level rebuild. But the Empire cartridges were among the best available MM cartridges when new and I have verified that they are working correctly. There is a large consensus of current opinion that the Empires I have compete at the same level as mid to upper 3 figure MM cartridges available new. In fact, I may hear more HF extension from the 2000Z/T than the AT; but that may be loading affected. As mentioned reproduction of certain instruments is holographic via the Empires in comparison to the AT. But the AT/Linn combo sounds much better and satisfying overall. It returns the smile to my face.

My point in all of this is try to determine why the differences are so great. Are the differences intrinsic or is there an error I am overlooking ? I verified that the cartridges are working as they should, I carefully adjusted alignment, I verified that the arm is correctly located and installed, I adjusted arm height, I used an external VTF gauge to set VTF.

One area that I can not currently address is cartridge loading. My AI M3 preamp cartridge loading is fixed at 47k. Some have reported that Empires respond well to different loading. The AT is connected to a Lundahl SUT and sounds fine at present.

Best,

Ross

All useful discourse nevertheless..., posted on October 21, 2016 at 12:04:21

mr.bear
Audiophile

Posts: 4167
Joined: November 13, 2001

...sorry, I've ben watching the Jeremy Brett Sherlock Holmes series and I can't stop saying things like "Indubitably! Come along now!" in a clipped tone to the Bearette, who's surely running out of patience.

Thanks for the insight on the Empires. I just posted a review on my experience refitting a similar-vintage Pickering XVS/XUV "Low Impedance" series cartridge and the sound is superb. I'm looking for my next "giant killer" cartridge and will keep my eyes open for an Empire 2000 body, unless you have other suggestions.

MN6042 chips; there are three in the SP15......, posted on October 21, 2016 at 12:30:56

viridian

and they are unobtainium at this point, as I said. And yes JP Jones does make a replacement part, but at $155.00 each three of them will exceed the market price of the SP15 turntable not including the labor to install them. So in an SP10 MKii it may make more financial sense than in an SP15.

But lots of times we put more into a piece than the market value, and with a recap and the three boards one would have an SP15 that should give many years of trouble free service. At a price.

The SP25 is like the 1200 in speed control, no MN6042 chips. And no salsa either.

RE: MN6042 chips; there are three in the SP15......, posted on October 21, 2016 at 18:48:29

Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000

I bought one of JP's MN6042 replacement PCBs, but since my own Mk3 is working fine, I have been procrastinating on having JP install it. But why would the SP15 use three of them, whereas the Mk2 and MK3 use only one?

JP is a valuable asset for any DD turntable devotee. After 3 years of frustration and failure by a few reputable techs, he was able to find the problem in my Victor TT101 and fix it for good.

Many like the V15-III with a Jico stylus, posted on October 22, 2016 at 08:45:27

Ross
Audiophile

Posts: 1814
Joined: January 24, 2000

Jico vn35HE is good; but the buzz surrounds the Jico SAS stylus profile. I have read several reviews where the reviewer has stated that the V15/SAS combo was enough to stop searching for a "better" mm cartridge.

I have an original V15 III He on hand to try. And I have read good reviews of ADC XLM MKII or III; Gace F9 E and Micro Acoustics 2002/ 2003.

If you want to spend a few years learning about Empire, there is a 114pg thread on Audio Karma focused on Empire cartridges. And Agon has a very long thread on MM cartridges in general.

Best,

Ross

a slight worble to sustained piano notes and single plucked guitar strings, posted on October 22, 2016 at 19:27:06
Lew Audiophile Posts: 10911 Location: Bethesda, Maryland Joined: December 11, 2000	On the Linn, this is as likely to be due to the spring suspension per se as to any power supply or motor control deficiencies. Thus I don't know that it would respond to an upgrade of the motor controller.

RE: Technics SP15 vs Linn LP12, posted on October 23, 2016 at 12:49:28

caligari
Audiophile

Posts: 415
Joined: March 20, 2008

I understand what you are talking about. The Technics of that era, which I own plenty (SP10Mk2, SP15, SP25, SL1200Mk2, SL1300Mk2, etc... except the flagship SP10Mk3), and I just don't think they represent the height of direct-drive technology or at least the kind of sound I prefer. Other than bass dynamics, slam, tightness, stable speed, and accurate midrange, they just lack fluidity that makes you lose in the music. They have a rather grainy texture to my ears, especially with string instruments like the violin. I would suggest you try a DD table with coreless motor. You might be surprised by the smoothness and naturalness, plus the precision and stability of DD tables are known for.

Vinyl Asylum

Technics SP15 vs Linn LP12

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