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weight and string method for anti skate - help needed

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Posted on October 7, 2016 at 13:18:19
Heifetz
Audiophile

Posts: 245
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: April 3, 2013
 Greetings,
I hane no anti skate device on my tone arm and would like to add one. I read that the easiest is the weight and string (fishing line) method. Does anyone have a good picture of this? I have seen a few on the intranet but I don't know how to attach it and where to attach it. There is no screw or allowance for it currently.
My tone arm is not a unipivot but is a 'suspended string mechanism'. Can it attach to the arm? Does it attach to the head where it is pivoted? Does it attach directly in line with the pivot?
Thx so much for any help.
Bob
"You have to leave something to your imagination"

 

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RE: weight and string method for anti skate - help needed, posted on October 7, 2016 at 13:34:34
PMC0607
Audiophile

Posts: 168
Location: Austin, TX.
Joined: January 1, 2014
 Post a photo of your arm, brand, model of arm and I'll see if I can help you.

 

RE: weight and string method for anti skate - help needed, posted on October 7, 2016 at 13:51:26
Heifetz
Audiophile

Posts: 245
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: April 3, 2013



Thx so much PMC0607,
The image is attached. It is not a 'brand'. It is home made. My friend mad it. He has now passed away.
Bob
"You have to leave something to your imagination"

 

RE: weight and string method for anti skate - help needed, posted on October 10, 2016 at 10:10:01
neobop
Audiophile

Posts: 492
Joined: September 10, 2010
 Hi,
The easiest way is a bucket and string. Tiny pieces of lead shot are added to the bucket to increase anti-skate. This requires a light, thimble-like bucket suspended from a bar.

If you want the bucket toward the inside (closer to the platter), the string attaches to the back of the pivot housing. Likewise, attachment to the front of the housing requires the bucket on the outside.

A fixed weight is much harder to fashion correctly. Adjusting AS would require changing the string's point of attachment - distance from the pivot.

This is a Sonus Formula 4 with the bucket attached to the back of the pivot housing:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;image=48392

This is an Alphason 100S with a fixed weight:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;image=49764

Here is a photo of a Unitrac. It's hard to see, but a bucket is attached to the front of the pivot. It goes to the outside, behind the arm lift lever:
http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=1619&image_id=2302

You can get a thin aluminum bar at a hardware. This is easily cut or bent. Attach it to the bottom of the cueing lever platform with epoxy. The bar goes to the height of the string attachment and the bucket should be just touching the armboard when the arm is in the rest position.

neo

BIRD LIVES

 

RE: weight and string method for anti skate - help needed, posted on October 10, 2016 at 12:58:22
Heifetz
Audiophile

Posts: 245
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: April 3, 2013
 Thank you for that advice.
When I played the Cardas Test LP skate adjustment track, my arm travels to the spindle indicating left channel bias..
However, when I play the HIFI News Test LP skate adjustment track the left channel begins distortion before the right channel indicating 'right channel bias'.
So I'm a little confused.
Thank you for your images and advice. If you look at the image of my t/arm you will see that there is place on the pivot housing to attach the string. should I attach with a touch of epoxy?
Bob
"You have to leave something to your imagination"

 

RE: weight and string method for anti skate - help needed, posted on October 10, 2016 at 15:52:00
neobop
Audiophile

Posts: 492
Joined: September 10, 2010
 I can't explain your test record results, but if your cartridge is offset - angled in, then there is going to be some skating. Other things like alignment or azimuth error can cause distortion. It looks like a low mass arm so I suggest keeping the bucket lightweight. The weight of the assembly will be part of the total AS force.

I glued a bar across the top of the bucket to attach the cord. The length of the cord is important. If it's too short the bucket will hit the bar before the record is done. Too long and the bucket rests on the armboard at the beginning of the record. Epoxy is good for attaching the cord. If you have to replace the cord, epoxy can be cut with a blade.

You can get a good idea of appropriate AS by sighting the cart from the front while playing a record. Make sure you're directly in front with even lighting. Look at the tip and cantilever in relation to the bottom of the cart.

neo


BIRD LIVES

 

RE: weight and string method for anti skate - help needed, posted on October 12, 2016 at 12:14:53
Heifetz
Audiophile

Posts: 245
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: April 3, 2013
 Thx so much Neo,
That is so helpful. I'm going to give that a go this afternoon!
Kind regards, Bob
"You have to leave something to your imagination"

 

RE: weight and string method for anti skate - help needed, posted on October 12, 2016 at 13:50:15
SgreenP@MSN.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3538
Joined: April 23, 2007
 You will hear little benefit (maybe none) from your a/s mod. Leave it as it is.

 

RE: weight and string method for anti skate - help needed, posted on October 16, 2016 at 13:04:08
Heifetz
Audiophile

Posts: 245
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: April 3, 2013
 Hello SgreeenP,
Thx for your comment.
May I ask why you believe the AS mod will make no difference, Do you mean that it is undetectable by ear or just will not work. Can you please elaborate.
Most people think that AS is necessary in an off-set tonearm. Do you think differently? What are your reasons?
I'm not trying topic an argument but I'm very curious and would like to extend my understanding of the issues.
Thx, Bob
"You have to leave something to your imagination"

 

RE: weight and string method for anti skate - help needed, posted on October 16, 2016 at 14:56:57
SgreenP@MSN.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3538
Joined: April 23, 2007
 Hi Jascha.....I was hoping to meet you some day (I'm a pro violinist and always marveled at his playing)...anyway.....About 5 years or so ago, I spoke to Harry Weisfield at VPI who told me that he doesn't use anti-skate in his listening...(actually he told me he hates a/s)...anyway this seemed like it went against all the popular thinking about tonearm tracking/setup. I had a VPI 10.5 tonearm at the time (now have a printed 3D) that has an a/s device which when attached the arm, can be very easily disabled instantly to discover the effect. ( I knew it wasn't absolutely essential, since I had many older arms that did not use a/s...Grado Lab,Mayware, etc.). When I compared the sound of my setup with/without a/s, I hear an openness without it...a blurring with it that I find objectionable. I've compared many recordings, and always, I come away with better sound without it. Now there are those that say that the stylus will wear prematurely without a/s, but I have never had this to be a factor. I've tried the comparison with other arms as well, and have come away with the a/s being detrimental to the sound. I believe that the force of a/s against the stylus actually damps it and inhibits the stylus's freedom, but I don't know that for sure...just a violinist, not an engineer. Anyway....good luck with your endeavor....enjoy the music Stan

 

RE: weight and string method for anti skate - help needed, posted on October 17, 2016 at 12:22:21
Heifetz
Audiophile

Posts: 245
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: April 3, 2013
 Hello Stan,
I enjoyed Jascha's playing too. (-:
I'm a violinist but mainly teach now.
re: audio
I have always steered towards the natural sound and one that ultimately evokes emotion and a musical experience. So, I have been quite experimental and like to hear things for myself and trust my own judgement. I have used an ebony 324mm straight arm that is low mass playing a Zyx Airy 3 1000 cart with 1.8g VTF. I really have not heard an arm that sounds as good (imo and according to my taste).
So, I'm experimenting to see if I can achieve at least the same quality of sound with an off-set and antiskate so that the grooves do not get damaged. I read so often that straight arms damage grooves and will eventually destroy lps.

That's my dilemma. I think you are correct about the AS blurring the sound.
So, may be a small amount of AS is possible. I'll have to listen. It may well be negligable in the end.
Bob
"You have to leave something to your imagination"

 

RE: weight and string method for anti skate - help needed, posted on October 17, 2016 at 15:58:41
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011
 You have to take the comments about "not using antiskate" with a grain of salt.
VPI users who refuse to use antiskate will certainly have a degree of antiskate as a result of the wire loop from the arm. They just don't add any extra.
The only reason VPI don't recommend antiskate is because they have difficulty in correctly compensating for it due to the configuration of the looped wire from the arm and the unipivot design. Also, the VPI geometric alignment is non-standard and since the skating force is dependent on the magnitude of the tracking error as well as groove friction, it is distinctly possible that between the nulls of a VPI arm, that no antiskate would very likely sound better. At the outer edges of the groove envelope, antiksate would definitely be required and Antiskate is roughly 10% of the VTF.
Having said that, the effects of incorrect antiskate are as described and in fact you can use the image blurring as a means of optimising.



Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: weight and string method for anti skate - help needed, posted on October 17, 2016 at 17:55:54
neobop
Audiophile

Posts: 492
Joined: September 10, 2010
 Interesting development here.
I was a "turntable guy" in the '80s and used a relatively high powered Audio Technica microscope to check wear.
The affects of incorrect anti-skate with offset pivoting arms is readily seen, and common. In most cases wear is slightly uneven, but sometimes it was extreme. Skewed cantilevers were often evident.

Most people hear a channel imbalance and use AS to correct it. But with that said, AS puts a torsional force on the tip/cantilever. That's why some prefer an underhung non-offset arm. The 304mm length of that straight arm would minimize alignment error which is a trade off.

It seems like higher compliance carts on an offset arm, tracking at lower VTF, are more subject to the consequences of incorrect AS. Arm pivot type might have something to do with results, but my Sonus Formula 4 (looks like a hot rod Mayware), came with AS. I always use it with that low mass arm. I'd much rather have it than not.

neo
BIRD LIVES

 

RE: weight and string method for anti skate - help needed, posted on October 18, 2016 at 06:31:39
Analog Bob
Manufacturer

Posts: 197
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Joined: September 7, 2007
 Your tonearm wiring is the same as in a VPI arm, with the wiring coming off the top. You should use the same tonearm twist method that VPI's Harry Weisfeld recommends for VPI tonearms. That is what I use on my VPI tonearm and it works great. I have heard from a cartridge retipper, that most cartridge tips wear indicate that too much antiskate had been applied. You don't need much.

 

RE: weight and string method for anti skate - help needed, posted on October 19, 2016 at 01:18:48
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011
 True, Peter Ledermann is on record for saying this, but it should be remembered that the tip cut, polish and the modulation amplitude all influence the proportion of antiskate required for a given VTF. What Peter is saying (which is absolutely correct) is that using a test tone of large amplitude will tend to result in excessive antiskate settings for "normal" cuts.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: weight and string method for anti skate - help needed, posted on October 19, 2016 at 01:26:16
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011
 Interesting! You would probably be one of the few on this forum who could answer this question:
What sort of damage have you seen on a MicroLine? I'm curious because the marketing suggests that because of the ridge design, the radius of curvature is approximately constant for the life of the tip, and yet I have read stuff on the web which make reference to chipped ridges! Apart from logging total playing time, how would one actually know without looking under a microscope!? Other tips like parabolic, spherical and elliptical would betray more obvious sonic evidence as flats are worn.


Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: weight and string method for anti skate - help needed, posted on October 19, 2016 at 07:52:39
neobop
Audiophile

Posts: 492
Joined: September 10, 2010
 Hi Anthony,
As you know the Microline, Microridge, and SAS all look the same, but it accounted for a small percentage of tips which came under the scope. [For those unfamiliar with the shape, there's a picture in an AT brochure in VE library.]

Because the ridge is so thin/small it is more subject to fracture than other shapes. I can answer your question first hand. I had an original 440ML OCC. The tip seemed to last forever until I accidently bounced it on the platter or plinth, I forget which. I checked with a glass and saw it was still there, so I assumed I got lucky. I was wrong.

I had my favorite Tommy Flanagan LP (Ballads and Blues) on the table which I proceeded to play. It didn't sound quite right after it should have warmed up, so I lifted the arm to find a long string of vinyl wrapped around the tip. Make your blood run cold?

The ML tip is so small you need about 75X even to get a good look for general inspection. With most tips you can use 20 - 50X.
This incident happened years after I had access to the scope. I can't say what it looked like, but the tip undoubtedly fractured.

AT was super conservative estimating tip life. They suggested checking an elliptical after 300 hrs. That's checking, not replacing. I think 1K hrs for an ML is also conservative as long as you don't bounce it on the plinth. If you do have an accident, make the next record one which you can sacrifice.
I've seen hand-held 100X magnifiers on epay, amazon. You could check with one of them, but I think you'll have to steady it on some kind of platform.

neo


BIRD LIVES

 

re anti-skate, posted on October 19, 2016 at 08:03:42
Bill Way
Audiophile

Posts: 1884
Location: Toms River NJ
Joined: May 28, 2012
Contributor
  Since: December 14, 2012
 The best way to set anti-skate is the HFRR "trackability" cuts. If you can track the next-to-hardest track you are in really good shape. With my Hadcock/Musicmaker, that's pretty much where I left off: the hardest track had some breakup, and everything else was ok.

However...
After weeks, I ran across one of Harry Weisfeld's many remarks on anti-skating. I removed the anti-skate and got an immediate "Ah, that's better." But the sound is much better. Highs cleaner and somewhat reduced - I think some of the HF energy I was getting was coming from the parts of the anti-skate mechanism resonating at various high frequencies, but that's a guess. The presentation just seemed a little more natural. With the anti-skating stuff removed, the last HFNRR trackability cut is horrible, but the next-to-last cut is still fine.

So I've ended up with Harry: on my system, getting the best tracking does not correspond to the best sound. YMMV.

Cheers,
WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

 

RE: re anti-skate, posted on October 19, 2016 at 10:38:44
SgreenP@MSN.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3538
Joined: April 23, 2007
 Bill....EXACTLY....that's why I write on these pages for others to at least... TRY no a/s, listen, and judge for themselves. I have been using no a/s for years, and never have had cartridge wear problems...actually, I don't care if it did cause excessive wear...just like I don't care about the wear on the tires of my car if I have to take the car somewhere.
With a/s I hear a closed in congested sound with less depth, air, spread, etc. Probably the real answer is a straight line tracker...but they have enormous sets of problems to overcome (though not a/s)

 

RE: re anti-skate, posted on October 19, 2016 at 10:41:59
neobop
Audiophile

Posts: 492
Joined: September 10, 2010
 People who use the highest velocity track which can be played on the trackability cuts, invariability wind up with too much AS. I've seen numerous threads on these forums where exactly that happened.

As already posted, skating force varies with groove velocity and position of the cart on the record. As it gets closer to the spindle the offset angle increases. There is no perfect setting. If you set it for highest groove velocity playable, then you'll probably be one of those who wear out the right channel side of the tip.

I think a better method is to apply a minimum amount and sight it from the front, level with the record surface. Play your normal fare and see if AS is close to correct. You can fine tune from there. It's better to have too little than too much, IMO. Regardless of which arm/cart I use, I always seem to use less than the recommended setting.

I doubt if the reduced high frequencies were from a resonating AS device. If you have too much AS that torsional force will tend to reduce bass dynamics and sound brighter. A minimal amount of AS will help keep cantilever centered and the cart from skipping. If you have a low cu/heavy tracker, it does not matter as much.

neo
BIRD LIVES

 

RE: re anti-skate, posted on October 19, 2016 at 11:48:44
Heifetz
Audiophile

Posts: 245
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: April 3, 2013
 Thank you Bill,
I have made my AS mod (string/bucket) and was quite pleased with it. But my experience is the same as yours and Stan's. Stan said that he experienced a 'blurring' whilst using AS. That is also my observation. Whilst AS was smooth on the inner tracks especially, it was just not as enjoyable. The sound did not quite pull me in and glue me to the chair to listen.
I agree with you that, "getting the best tracking does not correspond to the best sound" on my system.
Thx, Bob
"You have to leave something to your imagination"

 

RE: weight and string method for anti skate - help needed, posted on October 21, 2016 at 02:37:29
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011
 "..so I lifted the arm to find a long string of vinyl wrapped around the tip. Make your blood run cold?"

OMG! My worst fear! That was one of the things that concerned me regarding safety factors stylus life. The more extreme cuts may be superior to the simpler ellipticals and parabolics, but there does seem to be a price to pay that isn't purely financial.
With the cheap industrial grade ellipticals on say D6800EE styli etc, I only get about 350 hours or so before I can hear sibilance and evidence of distortion creeping in. At this point I ditch them. I was excited when I first discovered the AT440ML because back then, I had finally found a tip that was clearly technically superior to anything I had heard up to that point. The only problem was knowing when it was "done".

Your anecdote certainly highlights how carefully such extreme profiles need to be treated and how clean the records need to be.

Thanks again for the insight!


Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: microridge, posted on October 23, 2016 at 12:13:13
neobop
Audiophile

Posts: 492
Joined: September 10, 2010
 The Namiki Microridge (that's what we're really talking about) is a most ingenious design. Having the ridge separating the contact area from the main body of the tip, greatly extends life. This eliminates the horizontal spreading of the "flat", at least until the ridge is almost completely worn down. As it wears, the sides of the ridge tend to be rounded rather than sharpened.

AT just announced some new carts (Dec). There will be 7 varieties of a 460mH generator. The published ML tip dimensions are 2.2 x .12 mil.
That's a hell of a narrow ridge. By contrast a replicant 100 is 5 x 100 um. 5 um = .197 mil.
Is there a difference in HF tracing between a .12 and .2 mil minor radius? I don't know. It might depend on the shape and dimensions of each tip. A .2 mil elliptical has good detail, but might be worn out by the time you figure it out. I imagine the replicant has good detail and superior vertical contact.

Destroying the Tommy Flanagan record was my fault. I know better - just being lazy. If you bounce any stylus off a hard surface you're flirting with disaster and the microridge is delicate. I've replaced the record and sent the damaged stylus to a microscope shop to develop a stylus scope. I never heard back from them.
neo









BIRD LIVES

 

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