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Where's the Bass?

148.87.19.206
Posted on September 20, 2016 at 22:32:09
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15167
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 Trying out different headphone amplifiers, one in particular I know can hold a strong bass line. But, not from my turntable!

I actually now have a smaller, but sweeter sounding headphone amplifier after the phono stage.

I'm happy with the arrangement but got me to thinking that the bass line is not very prominent coming from the turntable.

It is a Rega Planar 3 with a Benz ACE and an enhanced Lehmann Black Cube phono stage. So, do I put the blame on the turntable OR the phono stage? My thinking is the turntable (motor, bearing, etc). I've been happy with it, but I guess that's what seems to be lacking the most right now.

 

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RE: Where's the Bass?, posted on September 21, 2016 at 03:37:57
PAR
 That query could cover a lot of ground and raises lots of questions:

What is your idea of " a strong bass line" ? Is it what an enthusiast of acoustic folk music would expect or is it what you might get from a Jamaican Sound System playing dub music?

Which Benz Ace cartridge do you have, SL, SM or SH?

What settings have you selected on the Black Cube for the Benz?

Is the Black Cube left switched on or do you just power it up before the listening session?

How have you correctly set SRA for the cartridge given that it is a fine line design and that on a stock Rega 3 it isn't straightforward to do this?

How has the Lehmann Black Cube been "enhanced"? Which Black Cube is it ? Which power supply is being used?

Does the output from the Black Cube go straight to the headphone amplifier? Does it pass through a preamplifier? You say other sources sound OK so do they go through a preamp whereas the phono doesn't?

 

You left out some info...., posted on September 21, 2016 at 04:27:55
EdAInWestOC
Audiophile

Posts: 6828
Location: Glen Burnie, MD USA
Joined: December 18, 2003
 What are the headphone amp and headphones? Its impossible to figure out what is happening at your ears if you do not include these.

Ed
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof

 

Thanks. Found some of it!, posted on September 21, 2016 at 07:32:46
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15167
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 The Headphones: Sennheiser HD-600 DON'T DO LOW BASS!

I have some cheaper headphones that DO bass; maybe, it is the lower impedance of the headphones, I don't know.

The turntable setup is probably not the most resolving in the bass area, though. As suggested, it could be MANY or ALL things.

I'm discovering that after seeking a good mid-range and silky highs, I also want nice low frequencies, or, at least be able to follow a good bass line.

 

RE: Thanks. Found some of it!, posted on September 21, 2016 at 08:30:38
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10912
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 If you're used to listening to actual speakers in a room, I don't know how any headphone can do comparably deep bass, since the wavelengths of those frequencies are much too long to be reproduced in the space between a headphone diaphragm and your ears.

 

RE: Thanks. Found some of it!, posted on September 21, 2016 at 09:34:17
mcgjohn@yahoo.com
Industry Professional

Posts: 501
Location: Midwest
Joined: February 5, 2008
 most headphone amps do not have the current delivery to properly drive HD600s or any other high impedance phone for that matter.

Need an amp that will do 50 watts per channel into 8 ohms, to get even close.

 

I don't think its the headphones, posted on September 21, 2016 at 10:37:08
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 I was a Sennheiser dealer and remember them and the 580 they replaced as having good low end response.

They are on the other hand a 300 ohm load. Tell us about your headphone amp and if other sources besides the phono plugged into it sound the same.

I take it you have the low output Ace cart. Have you tried the different gain settings on the cube?


ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: I don't think its the headphones, posted on September 21, 2016 at 10:58:15
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15167
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 The Cube gain is set for like 60dB as I recall, which makes it very even with all other sources. It is MODIFIED with a new power supply, but my recollection is that the bass got better after the mod through loudspeakers, which are bass challenged already, but I was happy with the results, but I do WAY more listening via headphones.

The headphone amp is a Chinese knockoff of a Lehmann headphone amp. I may have under specified the transformer used, but I have another transformer that I can use from some salvaged equipment that may be more in voltage spec and, thus able to provide more juice to the capacitors.

Otherwise, I'M SHOPPING for new headphones ;-)

 

If I may., posted on September 21, 2016 at 10:59:11
Travis
Audiophile

Posts: 6170
Location: La Grange, Texas
Joined: November 25, 2001
 I've owned Senn 598 and I've heard other Senns at headphone meets. They're not good at deep bass. Now, I don't know if the OP is talking about that kind of bass or just mid-bass which Senns can do.

I've also heard plenty of planars, owned the LCD-2 for a short while. Planars can do deep bass, as in, below 40hz.

I don't know how they do it, but listening is believing.

I've also heard the top end Stax 007/009 and they can do deep bass as well.

Just my experience.

I think you're right about the high impedance problem. Gotta have the right amp for that but maybe not 50WPC(!) as one poster claimed.




"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok

 

RE: I don't think its the headphones, posted on September 21, 2016 at 11:02:59
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 There is a higher gain setting on the Cube. I'd try it. Those are nice headphones but harder to drive than low impedance, say 32 ohm headphones. Good luck!


ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: If I may., posted on September 21, 2016 at 11:06:36
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 LOL right on the amp thing. I know it doesn't mean much but Sennheiser says they respond from 12-39K but dont say plus or minus what. They are at 300 ohms harder to drive. Especially by some of the lesser expensive tube headphone amps. Thanks for your post. Cheers!


ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

watts, posted on September 21, 2016 at 11:38:55
rrob
Audiophile

Posts: 762
Location: Kansas
Joined: February 7, 2010
 He was suggesting an amp with 50 wpc @ 8 ohm. Since wattage frequently doubles from 8 to 4 ohm, does it halve from 8 to 16?

If so that would translate to around 1.4 watts at 300 ohm??

 

cart?, posted on September 21, 2016 at 11:43:31
gkirkos
Audiophile

Posts: 201
Location: Seattle
Joined: February 6, 2015
 I would suspect the cartridge or phono stage.

My Benz Ace was thin sounding, but it could have been a lot of things.

My Planar 3 (the new one) has plenty of bass. In fact it's awesome in that category, blows away my VPI.

I would be suspect of phono stage power supply mods. But who knows.
Also, where it's plugged in can matter. Try the wall if you're using a Power Conditioner.

 

RE: watts, posted on September 21, 2016 at 12:17:35
Travis
Audiophile

Posts: 6170
Location: La Grange, Texas
Joined: November 25, 2001
 I don't know.

I've never seen or heard of a 50WPC into 8 ohms headphone amp.

I've also never heard of a regular amp that would allow that kind of power into the headphone jack.

Somebody else will need to answer your question.

Obviously.


"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok

 

Cart angle.. Tail down= more bass.. Also maybe cables?, posted on September 21, 2016 at 17:51:04
Smelly_Socks
 Cables can significantly curtail bass.

Not usually, but maybe.

 

RE: Thanks. Found some of it!, posted on September 22, 2016 at 14:14:53
Waxxy
Audiophile

Posts: 2648
Joined: July 19, 2011
Contributor
  Since: November 22, 2011
 "the wavelengths of those frequencies are much too long to be reproduced in the space between a headphone diaphragm and your ears"

I've seen this argument used with bass reproduction in small rooms too, but I think the logic is flawed. If a given frequency's wavelength needed it's full "extension" to be heard by ear, then headphones / earbuds wouldn't create any low-midrange or bass frequencies at all.

At least that's how it works in my head?

 

Which Benz Ace do you have?, posted on September 24, 2016 at 11:06:54
amandarae
Audiophile

Posts: 2591
Location: So.Cal
Joined: November 30, 2004
 I have the mid output (transparent) for 12 years now(rarely use) and here's my experience.
1.) I am also using a Rega based arm(OL Silver) and loading it with an SUT at 1:5 (1880 ohms) through a 47K phono stage.
2.) Arm effective mass is 14 grams.
3.) Tail down .

Hope this helps.

 

To drive the Senns...., posted on September 26, 2016 at 09:55:05
EdAInWestOC
Audiophile

Posts: 6828
Location: Glen Burnie, MD USA
Joined: December 18, 2003
 You will need a headphone amp capable of significant voltage swing to successfully drive a high impedance headphone. Most headphone amps are based on SS circuitry and most of these are designed to drive lower impedance headphones.

The achilles heel in a SS headphone amp is its voltage swing capability, not its current capability (some have this issue as well). You will not be driving as much current through a 300 ohm load so the voltage output must be capable of driving the headphones.

A SS amp is not typically designed to handle that type of thing. Most of the amps that are useful with the 300 ohm Senns are tubed amps where the rail voltage is naturally higher.

The Bottlehead Crack OTL headphone amp is known to be a very good amp to drive 300 ohm Sennheiser headphones. See link below.

If you don't want to put together a kit you can try this headphone amp:
Little Dot Mk IV

Ed
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof

 

RE: To drive the Senns...., posted on September 27, 2016 at 14:08:09
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15167
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 Interesting.

I have this suspicion that the HD-600's don't do low bass. Anyway, I've completely switched my arrangements.

The turntable to phono stage now drives an SMSL headphone amp with a homemade power supply. It is a single chip design with a 24v power supply. It has a very good midrange and I like it through the HD-600 which also has a good midrange.

The Lehmann knockoff with +-15 volt rails but individual output transistors tames the bass on the Beyerdynamics DT-235, which are very cheap headphones that sound decent (to me), all this direct from an Audiolab tuner which goes as low in bass as they transmit FM.

Looking for my next headphone, headphone amp or, maybe, plain old preamp. I've put my Anthem tube stack on hold for a while, while I mainly listen via headphone.

 

What kind of bass?, posted on September 27, 2016 at 15:38:53
genungo
 I've owned Senn 600 and 650 and I'd say the overall presentation (including the bass) is just about perfect for classical music because the bass seems expansive without being overdone.

My favorite headphones for jazz are AKG K701 because the presentation is leaner and very precise.

Techno fans will probably prefer different headphones altogether. I don't listen to much Techno but my favorite headphones for Rock are Grado RS-1.

Headphones that provide gutsy or "visceral" bass with one genre of music can sound overly bassy with a genre that requires precision in bass. I've never heard a pair of headphones that can do all genres equally well, so I choose a headphone to match the kind of music I'm playing.

What genre(s) do you listen to most?

 

Thank you., posted on September 27, 2016 at 16:34:57
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15167
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 That's just my impressive as well. Not ONLY do you match a system, but you must MATCH to the type of music one listens to!!

On Turntable, I have exclusively much Jazz and much Classical. And, the Classical is excellent if I concentrate on the midrange!! On the Jazz, not so much. (Through loudspeakers, with tube amplification, the Jazz comes through rather well, though.)

On Tuner, I have KCSM, so enuf said. I thought Jazz stopped at about 1980 according to my record collection, but KCSM proves me so wrong. Glad I got back to listening to FM.

Now, for the other genres, yes, I need a headphone and system that will do them justice. The AKG may be good. I am very comfortable sticking with that group of German headphone companies that have a good track record. I think I tried on a Grado at a show and I was just not enamored with the weight distribution and feel of the headphones, but that may be just me.

 

RE: To drive the Senns...., posted on September 27, 2016 at 16:40:36
Bill Way
Audiophile

Posts: 1884
Location: Toms River NJ
Joined: May 28, 2012
Contributor
  Since: December 14, 2012



I use the Crack with Senn 800's, and the bottom end is outstanding. It's very easy to assemble if you have or learn basic soldering skills. The Speedball p/s upgrade requires some precision soldering. I don't know if you'll get the same results from 600's, but check the Crack forum on the bottlehead site and I'm sure you'll find out. There is lots of expertise there.

The extra switches above the volume knob are for a Corda crossfeed circuit I added. It gives a big "Ah... that's better" to some recordings when listening to cans. The output tube is a WE 421A, which I like a little better than the standard 6080. The difference is minor, but it's cool to have a WE tube. The guitar pick is from Eric Andersen. It doesn't help the sound, but I'm a fan. The veneer is zebrawood.

The Crack/HD-800 combo gives probably the best sound I've ever had.

WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

 

Head size and shape influences headphone fit, which in turn..., posted on September 27, 2016 at 20:47:09
genungo
 ... influences headphone bass. So, once again, Sennehieser shows that they are on top of the game with the HD630VB. Low-impedance, easy-to-drive, sealed cup, and variable bass. Adjustable bass compensates for discrepancies in fit.

Although you can crank the bass up or down in gratuitous fashion if you want to, that dial on the earcup was not put there for bassheads who simply want to crank up bottom end performance or for the Jack Spratt types who can eat no fat and who want a lean bass setting. That dial allows for well balanced bass when heads are not "average" or "typical" in size/shape - as they so often are NOT. People with heads that prevent a firm earcup seal might want to crank the bass up a bit, while those with heads that allow for a very firm seal will want a neutral or even an attenuated setting.

Not sure if you've read any of the reviews yet, but this one seems like a very interesting headphone design...


 

The complaint about Senns having no low end is common..., posted on September 28, 2016 at 08:14:13
EdAInWestOC
Audiophile

Posts: 6828
Location: Glen Burnie, MD USA
Joined: December 18, 2003
 You need a headphone amp capable of driving the 300 ohm cans. If you search on hifi.org (sorry moderators but this is the only location I could find significant info on this issue) you will find several threads on what headphone amp is compatible with Sennheiser 300 ohm headphones.

The bottom line is that the successful amps are either tube based or the type where the headphone output that is taken from the power amp through a simple drop down resistor (usually part of a receiver).

The second of those is less desirable but it works and will usually drive the Senns with ample bass response.

You have to be careful when selecting an amp for 300-600 ohm headphones. There are lots of them on the market that claim they will "work" with the Sennheiser headphones but "work" is a pretty loose term in this context.

Of course most of the headphone amps on the market will work if you plug in the headphones in the output jack. The problem is when you want to raise the volume level or want decent low end performance.

FYI...there is another amp that you may want to consider. Its another tube based OTL amp. I have never personally listened to one but I know of someone who had exactly the same problem you are having and he bought the Schiit Valhalla. He is very happy with the amp. At the link below.

Ed
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof

 

True enough, posted on September 28, 2016 at 08:59:54
genungo
 When I first plugged my Senn HD650 headphones into my balanced-drive DNA Sonett SET tube amp I was startled because the drivers literally jumped with a new kind of power. I could actually feel the popping air waves hitting my ear canals, but better bass was only one of the benefits.

The solid state amps I had used previously simply made things loud in an ill-defined sort of way. Think cardboard cutout vs. 3-D diorama.

 

RE: True enough, posted on September 29, 2016 at 09:34:16
horn kid
Audiophile

Posts: 128
Joined: November 2, 2014
 Where's the problem: with all due respect to you, the turntable, tonearm, phono stage.

 

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