SAS available again

Well they have upped the ante. At the original price I had a no brainer. Now I have decisions>

-Get a Denon 103 or other good sounding cheapie.
-Have SS retip with line contact & ruby and longer life.
-Buy a fast SAS replacement.

This IMO has now become a $/hour comparison as rumour was the SAS is not a long life stylus.You still have some change from the orginal sound ((mine was better) thus options are viable.

I could be wrong here so please chime in. Of course if Jico had the Ortofon VMS range I want to hear the SAS.

.
must..NOT..resist..."upgraditis"

RE: SAS available again, posted on July 21, 2016 at 11:49:31

Jeff Maxson
Audiophile

Posts: 969
Joined: January 6, 2002

The page says 500 hours before a retip, same as the older version. Not sure if they're just being conservative; they say this is 2-3 times longer than a standard stylus, which also seems very short. But a retip ought to last twice as long.

I also put one in my shopping cart and got the message that it would take 6 weeks to deliver, which is longer than Needle Clinic. Quicker than Soundsmith of course.

RE: SAS available again, posted on July 22, 2016 at 06:05:47

Frank_Locke

Now I know

What I'm getting for Xmas! :)

RE: SAS available again , posted on July 22, 2016 at 11:09:23

docw
Audiophile

Posts: 8115
Location: So. California
Joined: July 23, 2004
Contributor
Since: November 29, 2004

I just switched from my Shure V15, so will probably try it again on another occasion.

http://www.jico-stylus.com/product_info.php?products_id=1693

RE: SAS available again, posted on July 24, 2016 at 02:57:47

flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011

The 500 hours is not the time to failure but the time for the distortion level due to wear to exceed 3% at 15kHz which is not that obvious given the other sources of distortion associated with vinyl playback so you should be able to push somewhat higher in usage hours.
If you are prepared to accept a higher level of distortion (and increased risk of possible groove damage), then you can get closer to the 1000 hour level which AT advertise. It largely depends on how similar the grade of diamond is to the tips AT use. With a MicroLine tip, the risk is that the ridge breaks off or chips are taken out. When they fail, they will fail catastrophically compared to conical or elliptical tips where flats get worn on the scanning surfaces.

For a comparison, an elliptical tip would be good for 250 hours using the same metric of wear related distortion. A Shibata would be around 350 hours.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

RE: SAS available again, posted on July 24, 2016 at 06:45:40

John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
Since: January 29, 2004

> The 500 hours is not the time to failure but the time for the distortion level due to wear to exceed 3% at 15kHz

In addition to frequency, the modulation level of the groove is also important because distortion increases with modulation level. Therefore, you need to specify either groove amplitude or groove velocity in conjunction with the 15-kHz frequency. Another approach might be to simply specify the particular test record being used for the 15-kHz distortion test.

Best regards,
John Elison

RE: SAS available again, posted on July 24, 2016 at 21:30:36

flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011

I think we would both agree that the number of hours is a meaningless metric. It is rather like comparing the range of a vehicle with respect to fuel economy. Without specifying the average modulation level and the number of different records used, tracking distortion characteristics, antiskate level, cleanliness of the groove, tip alignment, diamond purity, tip polish, VTF, compliance etc.
If the test used the same record and played that over and over to determine wear rate, one would find the rate of wear to be higher than playing a wide variety of different records.

However, with the SAS/MicroLine, I think there needs to be some guidance on what to listen for given that they will fail catastrophically if taken right to the limits of the ridge "height". The patent implies that the limit to the scanning radius dimension is that which doesn't break off....
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

RE: SAS available again, posted on July 24, 2016 at 21:54:03
John Elison Audiophile Posts: 23900 Location: Central Kentucky Joined: December 20, 2000 Contributor Since: January 29, 2004	I'm not sure what you're arguing about or why. Your original statement about evaluating stylus wear by measuring 3% harmonic distortion at 15-kHz is incomplete without also specifying the groove velocity of the test tone being measured. In lieu of that you could specify a particular test record instead. I'm not talking about using a worn out test record. That would be pretty stupid, wouldn't it?

RE: SAS available again, posted on July 24, 2016 at 22:16:16

flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011

I'm not sure why you assume that everyone is arguing with you. You should get over yourself and learn to be a little less defensive.

Who said anything about a worn out test disc? You obviously didn't read what I wrote clearly, in which case, read it again. This time with both eyes.

If you have an issue with the information take it up with JICO who supplied it!

Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

RE: SAS available again, posted on July 25, 2016 at 03:52:16
John Elison Audiophile Posts: 23900 Location: Central Kentucky Joined: December 20, 2000 Contributor Since: January 29, 2004	Sorry! I guess I shouldn't have responded because I really don't understand what you're talking about. I keyed in on the statement about 3% distortion at 15-kHz, which is basically meaningless without further qualification. Sorry! John Elison

RE: SAS available again, posted on July 25, 2016 at 05:35:17
johnsonad Audiophile Posts: 759 Location: Central California Joined: June 9, 2008	The tip is still the same but the cantilever changed from boron to sapphire. Can anyone talk to the advantages of this?

RE: SAS available again, posted on July 25, 2016 at 07:32:42
dave slagle Manufacturer Posts: 5430 Location: NYC Joined: April 27, 2001	Sadly, the advantage is quite simple. Boron appears to be no longer available worldwide as a cantilever material so they had to switch to something else. I suspect the whole reason the SAS temporarily went away is due to the sudden unavailability of the boron cantilever material and the switch to sapphire was purely out of necessity. dave

RE: SAS available again, posted on July 25, 2016 at 07:46:50
johnsonad Audiophile Posts: 759 Location: Central California Joined: June 9, 2008	Thanks for the reply Dave and that makes sense. At least they are available again!

RE: SAS available again, posted on July 27, 2016 at 00:45:06

flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011

No worries! Just to reassure you for future interactions, I'm not given to attacking on the forum (unless provoked!) and least of all with people I respect. In fact, I was agreeing with you. The ill defined test conditions of the distortion level at 15kHz notwithstanding...my point was that quoting a specific lifetime is itself meaningless given the number of factors involved in determining wear. For a given tip, say a MicroLine in a PTGII tracking at 2g, you must get a higher wear rate than for the same tip in a V15VxMR tracking at 1g. Quoting 1000 hours as the life may give an indicative figure, but is clearly not going to be accurate.
The other point I was making about the wear rate was that if you play one record (not a test disc!), say, over and over, you will wear the tip at a greater rate than randomising the playback over a significantly larger sample of discs. Presumably this will be due to the wider variation in modulation level plus if you play back one single record, the particulate buildup in the grooves (shed from the tip) will accelerate the wear.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

I just checked my CBS STR-100 disc and it..., posted on July 27, 2016 at 03:00:18

flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011

...has test tones (20,18,16,14,10 and 5kHz) at -15dB ref 0dB, 5cm/s RMS for L and R channels at the inner and outer grooves for determining scanning loss/wear. I am not aware of any current test discs that have similar test tones, although any test disc with spot frequencies could be used. A cartridge manufacturer could specify the "life" based on any arbitrary frequency they chose and choose any distortion level that gave them favourable numbers.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

RE: SAS available again, posted on July 28, 2016 at 09:04:46
rclanger Audiophile Posts: 321 Location: Connecticut Joined: March 6, 2007	Good to know! I've got a Jico MM-1 cart. Not sure who else produces a replacement stylus for it, so I ordered one. Will be interesting to hear what the differences might be between the old and the new SAS stylus.

Vinyl Asylum

SAS available again

100.14.10.243