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Garrard and Thorens turntables

31.173.92.177
Posted on July 19, 2016 at 03:51:07
akolegov
Audiophile

Posts: 979
Location: Russia
Joined: July 1, 2010
 There is seller in England who sells restored vintage equipment (http://www.retrotechaudio.co.uk/currently-for-sale.html).

I purchased a vinatge Sansui AU-517 amplifier from him, and it was a very smooth transaction. The amp works perfectly and looks like new.

Now he sells, among other things, vintage Garrard and Thorens turntables (Garrard 301 and Thorens TD-124 MK2). Each of them looks like a skeleton or kit rather than like a finished product. I am not familiar with eaither of these models but I know that each of them is highly acclaimed.

I'd like to know whether they were initially sold in the form shown in the pictures (like kits with lots of accompanying bolts, washers and nuts) or they were sold in cabinets?

Thanks in advance for explanations.

 

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RE: Garrard and Thorens turntables, posted on July 19, 2016 at 05:18:24
Batman
Audiophile

Posts: 4194
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Joined: March 31, 2000
Contributor
  Since: June 16, 2000
 All that's needed for these TT's is a plinth.

Part of the appeal of these is the ability to mount them in plinths of various construtions. If you're not handy, there are lots for sale on Ebay and elsewhere .

Check our the Thorens section of the Analog Department for lots of info on Thorens TT's There's also asimilar section for Garrard TT's


 

RE: Garrard and Thorens turntables, posted on July 19, 2016 at 08:53:03
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 Whats the voltage and frequency where you live? The Thorens is easier if you have 50hz. A little pricey but they are srrviced and in good shape. Like Batman says plenty of places to buy a plinth or make one. Vinyl engine should have the diagram.






ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: Garrard and Thorens turntables, posted on July 19, 2016 at 08:57:48
akolegov
Audiophile

Posts: 979
Location: Russia
Joined: July 1, 2010
 My local volatge is 220V. I currently have a Micro Seiki BL-10X TT and there is no urgent need to acquire another turntable.

Finished Thorens and Garrard turntables (I mean, with plynths) are available but are much more expensive that the ones I provided in my link.

 

Are the promised to WORK on 60Hz? remember in EU 50Hz, not 60, posted on July 19, 2016 at 09:14:44
Smelly_Socks
 So you buy the kit, then find out they WILL NOT WORK (at correct speed) in USA. Screwed.
Then you have to find the right pulley...

 

Link, posted on July 19, 2016 at 09:43:09
Travis
Audiophile

Posts: 6170
Location: La Grange, Texas
Joined: November 25, 2001
 .

"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok

 

RE: Link, posted on July 19, 2016 at 12:23:33
akolegov
Audiophile

Posts: 979
Location: Russia
Joined: July 1, 2010
 It's the same link I initially provided when I posted this question.

 

Neither.. Get a Lenco, posted on July 19, 2016 at 12:34:01
marc-homeslice
Audiophile

Posts: 2888
Location: Bucks Co. Pennsylvania
Joined: March 17, 2003
 As a long time Thorens 124 owner.. i cannot say enough wonderful things about the potential of a Lenco L75/L78 in it's stead. Simpler machines, better motor (perhaps arguable, but more torque), MUCH more speed stable, simpler in every facet. They also have a more dynamic disposition.. not unlike a Garrard 301/401.


IMO a well running 124 variant is great looking (I dig the looks anyway) and has interesting features like the record cueing clutch, built in stobe-o-scope, but that's about where the love affair ended for me. The combination idler/belt drive is frankly a PITA prone to belt slip and I could never get the speed nearly stable enough.


If I lived in Europe where the 50 hz. machines are more abundant i'd buy up a few more donor Lencos if I could. There are also a few turn key Lenco builders out there.. and they are supported by an incredible community of people at the Lenco Heaven forum. I can't say enough good things about my decision to go from a Thorens 124 mk II to a Lenco build.


Just one person's opinion.. but keep it in mind and do some research.
As far as a Garrard.. have heard several.. and would LOVE to one day have either a 301/401, but the initial cost of these in good repair is steep.


Good luck!

Marc

 

RE: Link, posted on July 19, 2016 at 12:36:01
Travis
Audiophile

Posts: 6170
Location: La Grange, Texas
Joined: November 25, 2001
 I know.

I just made it clickable.




"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok

 

RE: Neither.. Get a Lenco, posted on July 20, 2016 at 02:20:19
rockdoc
Audiophile

Posts: 200
Location: Harwich MA
Joined: February 17, 2010
 Another former Garrard 301 , 401, and Thorens TD124 owner here. Now running the Lenco on a PTP-4 plate (find on lencoheaven.net) on a 4 layer corian plinth. Best turntable in my long experience!

The Garrards are great too, no question.

 

RE: Neither.. Get a Lenco, posted on July 20, 2016 at 02:59:40
barhead
Audiophile

Posts: 725
Location: Australian West Coast
Joined: September 6, 2009



I have a Goldring/Lenco G99 that has been sitting here for about 10 years and always wondered how good these turntables are and if they could stack up against my Garrard 301/401 or my main table the Commonwealth Electronics 12D/3. I find your comments encouraging so maybe I will blow the dust off the table and mount it on a decent piece of jarrah and compare for myself. I have had doubts which are still there so it might be some time away.
BH

 

RE: Neither.. Get a Lenco, posted on July 20, 2016 at 07:10:01
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 Underneath it all, is that an idler drive with the idler wheel positioned vertically, so it drives the underside of the platter? If so, yes, it has a lot of potential to outperform a TD124, IMO. (And a 301 too.) Leno/Goldring did also make some belt drives, probably later in their history.

They're all 3 great tables, and I do not wish to put down either the Garrard or the Thorens. In fact, I've never had a 301 in my system, so it is perhaps not fair for me to draw any conclusions. I have had a TD124, however.

 

Have no idea what the motor is like on your G99.., posted on July 20, 2016 at 09:18:56
marc-homeslice
Audiophile

Posts: 2888
Location: Bucks Co. Pennsylvania
Joined: March 17, 2003
 ..and I don't think it's as simple as the L75/L78 under the hood.. but there are peeps at Lenco Heaven who have done high end builds using the G99. It does seem to use a simlar pulley/capstan, vertical idler wheel drive as the others.

If you're looking for an audio hobby project, i would register over there and do some digging and learning.. especially if you're already an idler table fan! :)

 

RE: Neither.. Get a Lenco, posted on July 20, 2016 at 15:47:54
mosin
Manufacturer

Posts: 10719
Joined: July 24, 2003
 The Goldring is a Lenco, and it is the best one. You do yourself a disservice by not putting it to use.

 

If you want a working Thorens, talk to Dave. , posted on July 20, 2016 at 17:24:27
Pivo
Audiophile

Posts: 344
Location: MidWest
Joined: May 6, 2004
 There's multiple vendors for vintage TT's. Chose one who fits your country and completeness.

In US...

http://vinylnirvana.com


....Listening to my upgraded AR.....

Bob

 

I very much doubt it would be better than this, posted on July 20, 2016 at 17:27:00
barhead
Audiophile

Posts: 725
Location: Australian West Coast
Joined: September 6, 2009



I have been using this Commonwealth Electronics 12D/3 since 2000 with the occasional listen to a Garrard 301. Both of these tables have their own strength but they are very different so I settled on the CE as it matches up to the 15" Tannoy Monitor Reds better than the Garrards. Pommie turntable and Pommie speakers to me are not a great match.
As for the Lenco/Goldring maybe one day and that's a big maybe.

 

RE: Neither.. Get a Lenco, posted on July 20, 2016 at 17:30:28
barhead
Audiophile

Posts: 725
Location: Australian West Coast
Joined: September 6, 2009
 Lew it is the vertical idler version with the heavier platter. When I look at the table it reminds me of the cheap changer tables that were used in some radiograms in the 60'sand it turns me off wanting to do anything with it.

 

RE: I very much doubt it would be better than this, posted on July 20, 2016 at 17:47:11
mosin
Manufacturer

Posts: 10719
Joined: July 24, 2003
 You would be right, too. The Commonwealth is very good indeed.

 

RE: I very much doubt it would be better than this, posted on July 20, 2016 at 19:51:37
barhead
Audiophile

Posts: 725
Location: Australian West Coast
Joined: September 6, 2009
 Coming from you " the guru " you have made my mind up. Time to move it on and let someone else make a project out of it.
BH

 

What's a radiogram???, posted on July 21, 2016 at 07:08:53
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 None of these turntables was an industrial tour de force in its day. Don't forget that the Gerrard 301 chassis was a ~$50 item in the 50s.

 

RE: What's a radiogram???, posted on July 21, 2016 at 12:37:38
Erocka2000
Audiophile

Posts: 302
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: April 26, 2011
 What was a industrial tour de force in the 1950s?

 

A Singer Sewing Machine?, a Buick?, posted on July 21, 2016 at 15:22:53
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 Maybe a Univac.

 

RE: I very much doubt it would be better than this, posted on July 21, 2016 at 15:53:36
mosin
Manufacturer

Posts: 10719
Joined: July 24, 2003
 You should be able to get top dollar for it. Lenco guys in the know always want that one.

 

what do you think is a fair price to ask, posted on July 21, 2016 at 17:06:13
barhead
Audiophile

Posts: 725
Location: Australian West Coast
Joined: September 6, 2009
 BH

 

Get a 301!!, posted on July 22, 2016 at 06:23:07
Joe Roberts
Manufacturer

Posts: 412
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004
 If the higher cost is no problem, get a 301. You will not be sorry.

I have 301 and Lenco L70 at the moment and used 124s for many years.

All are good. Lenco is a DIY project to achieve best results. Mine is stock and while lively and fun, the stock arm is quite far from the greatest and demands low compliance carts. It is an excellent budget choice though and the sky is the limit on mods. Stock...not a top performer.

If you are not a hacker, skip Lencos.

124 has a very enjoyable liquid sound but I'd take the 301 on big music or bass oriented selections. Loved the 124 on jazz though.

301 sonically and mechanically stands above the others I think. Also extremely trouble free. They are all good but I'd have to say the Garrard rules that list.

Make sure you get the proper 50hz or 60hz version for your region!

My 301 in the fancy new plinth made Art Dudley's DC Audiofest report. I hope he didn't slobber on it!

http://www.stereophile.com/content/caf2016-do-go-back-rockville

I'd love to try a Lenco G99, certain Gates, a few obscure Rekokuts, etc. for research and continuing education but I will never abandon my 301!





------------------------------

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

Dear Win, Why would I want the G99 vs an L75/78?, posted on July 22, 2016 at 06:50:02
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 Is the platter more massive? What?
Thanks.

 

RE: Get a 301!!, posted on July 22, 2016 at 06:52:48
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 Seems like you are comparing a bone stock Lenco to a tweaked 301. That's hardly fair. I agree that the Lenco tonearm is "problematic", at best.

 

RE: Get a 301!!, posted on July 22, 2016 at 07:10:05
Joe Roberts
Manufacturer

Posts: 412
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004
I was pointing out that the stock Lenco falls far short of the mark set by a stock 301...or stock 124 for that matter.

This is totally fair and, I believe, accurate advice.

My 301 is all stock parts, except for added strobe light. Even the idler wheel is original.

My Lenco has a new metal wheel to replace the warped junky plastic original.

Yeah, I put a good Schick arm on the 301 and a Blue Andreoli rebuilt SPU with silver coils and whatnot but the fact you can't do that on a Lenco further proves my point.

A super tweaked up rebuilt from ground up Lenco *might* compete more closely. I'd have to hear a specific specimen to know.

But I'm feeling that the OP is not a TT hacker and just wants a good trouble free table, by virtue of the questions asked, in which case the 301 seems the clear choice, if cost is not an issue.

These TTs were a lot more fun at garage sale prices, I'd admit...









------------------------------

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

A fully tweaked up Lenco.., posted on July 22, 2016 at 08:07:43
marc-homeslice
Audiophile

Posts: 2888
Location: Bucks Co. Pennsylvania
Joined: March 17, 2003
 Like mine with an OMA slate plinth, titanium bearing, ti idler arm and wheel assembly with a Schick arm doesn't merely compare to a stock 301/401, in my opinon and others, it surpasses it. Though not an apples to apples comparison of course. And an optimized 301/401 versus an optimized Lenco (i've heard them both) is virtually too close to call. The Lencos big advantage is the cost of entry obviously.

Your point that stock Garrards are further up the chain versus a tweakers delight Lenco is a fair point. In fairness i've never heard an optimized 124 really. Not with an arm and the drive system functioning perfectlty. They are much fussier machines than the simple redone Lencos, no question.

 

Some lenco left, posted on July 22, 2016 at 09:28:40
Joe Roberts
Manufacturer

Posts: 412
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004
 Well, I have no doubt that a balls-to-the wall DIY Lenco effort such as described could be competitive with anything but I'd call that a new design with some Lenco parts in it.

It would cost more than a modest 301 setup to reproduce, aside from requiring time, research, work, and some skills and knowledge, plus serious motivation.

I wish two things: That Lenco did a super uncompromised model (from today's standpoint) and that I had one!

I stand by my recommendation of the 301 as an expensive but great semi-turnkey/usable stock and non-problematic idler motor unit.

I play with a lot of turntables and still love the way the Garrard integrates and layers stuff. Maybe a bit more restrained than a few idlers I have on hand, but it really creates a sense of excitement and anticipation to my ear. My favorite of all time.

------------------------------

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

RE: Some lenco left, posted on July 22, 2016 at 11:11:10
marc-homeslice
Audiophile

Posts: 2888
Location: Bucks Co. Pennsylvania
Joined: March 17, 2003
 I'd love to have a Garrard.. but the cost of the initial deck.. especially a 301 in good shape is what? Maybe a 1k USD? And you'd be working up a sweet arm anf plinth for it just like a top notch build on something like a Lenco.

The original poster lives in Europe I believe. The cost of a 50 hz. donor machine, a

ptp plate, a new overbuilt bearing, a new or refirbished idler assembly would cost a good bit less than that.. it's got a more gradual upgrade path and the initial buy in is less.. and the performance is close to or equivalent.

That's all i'm trying to say. And.. there are a TON of diy builds and builders to aid the assent of your turntable.

If I had the bread.. i'd own at least a 301 and a 401 myself. Have a nice one.. either way.. always good to see someone newly interested in the big idlers. :)

 

RE: Some lenco left, posted on July 22, 2016 at 11:34:45
Joe Roberts
Manufacturer

Posts: 412
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004






I understand. I am on Lenco Heaven and know many of the Euro Lenco guys personally.

I bought a Bogen/Lenco B52 so I can hang with them in true lenco comradeship.

I feel the pain of 301 pricing but being in the elite hi-fi manufacturer community, I recognize that a lot of folks world wide would be happy to pop $2k on a motor unit. I'd want a TT and a nice used car for $2k! Only kidding but not by much.

I can see a $2k 301 as a FAR better deal than some of the wacko space program tables being sold for huge cash. Go to the Munich show and there are 100 expensive TT makers, like one per buyer.

For me, a 301 was a lifetime purchase. I had mine for 30 years as my main table while dozens cane and went. Definitely got my $50 out of it.

I am a huge fan of DIY and even lean toward the ghetto fabulous aesthetic a bit. I spend some cash but appreciate the concept of spending less for top results and enjoyment on DIY philosophical grounds.

Here's my latest project: RoK T12H with Karmadon silicone-damped arm from the Ukraine. Cost me about $900 including yellow hot rod paint, but the arm was new ($450). I'm proud of this bad-ass offbeat project!




------------------------------

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

Very cool Joe!, posted on July 22, 2016 at 12:44:20
marc-homeslice
Audiophile

Posts: 2888
Location: Bucks Co. Pennsylvania
Joined: March 17, 2003
 Gotta love a neat RoK build! Is that a huge motor peeking below the top plate? And that arm!

Nice to see someone who is involved with something as utterly droolworthy as Silbatone stuff loving a Garrard and playing w idler builds. Makes sense in a fabulous "they don't build em like this anymore" symetry.. but i'd think you could maybe barter for any kind've deck you'd like. :)

 

RE: Very cool Joe!, posted on July 22, 2016 at 13:25:04
Joe Roberts
Manufacturer

Posts: 412
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004
 Silbatone gear, while musically excellent and super-interesting technologically, is too fancy for me. I only have one old Silbatone 300B amp.

I try to DIY everything I can, but I am getting lazy as I approach AARP age.

I get to hear a number of very expensive modern TTs in the Silbatone halls and elsewhere in my travels, and I'll take a 301 or RoK for myself. One of the other Silbatone guys uses a 301 though.

I can't say I am a high-end guy at all. Select upscale vintage and DIY are what interests me. Old idler TTs straddle these interests.

For the high end crowd, 301s are basically like FREE. Only $2k. Cheap.

Such people exist, 1000s in Seoul alone, but every day more and more are learning the lesson that new, fancy, and expensive does not equate to good.

------------------------------

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

Amen to that! Enjoy your machines. :) (nt), posted on July 22, 2016 at 14:08:22
marc-homeslice
Audiophile

Posts: 2888
Location: Bucks Co. Pennsylvania
Joined: March 17, 2003
 --

 

In hindsight, I feel I slighted the Lenco, posted on July 29, 2016 at 06:21:31
Joe Roberts
Manufacturer

Posts: 412
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004



I left this discussion with a sense that I was not giving the Lenco proper respect, so I pulled out my B62/L70 and put a new M44-7 on it to give it a listen. I was using an antique M3D that was on the TT when I got it.

A stock L70 is very good indeed, although the spring-loaded arm is bizarre and flaky, I rebuilt mine and put new bearings in it and still rarely get exactly the same stylus pressure reading twice in succession.

And with the non adjustable mounting position in the headshell, depart from conical styli at your own risk. DL103 might be as high end as one can go with this arm, cartridge wise.

As forum discussion led me to expect, the Shure M44-7 works real well in the L70 and presents a natural and more sophisticated than expected frame. Musical sophistication not audiophile sophistication. Not top detail and HF sparkle but lots of dynamic shadings and tonal textures. Great old record playing machine that doesn't emphasize vinyl noise.

I only know this stock Lenco model but it does sound liquid, compelling, and alive. Has the fluidity of a TD124 with more solidity of foundation and a bit more dynamic snap than I remember from the Thorens, but it has been a long while. Definitely a good mechanical base, shared among all Lenco models.

Too bad there are few alternative arms that will plug right in given the 233mm mounting radius. Can't even change the shoebox-sized headshell because the mount (and color code!) are totally non-conventional.

No, it isn't 301/Schick good on a cost-no-object head to head basis, not to me, but for a couple hundred bucks, Lenco has to be on the recommended list despite a litany of quirks and challenges.

With a couple thousand discretionary bills in the budget, I recommend the legendary 301 over the L70!

------------------------------

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

RE: Very cool Joe!, posted on August 8, 2016 at 03:55:07
horn kid
Audiophile

Posts: 128
Joined: November 2, 2014
 Someone above said:

"Such people exist, 1000s in Seoul alone, but every day more and more are learning the lesson that new, fancy, and expensive does not equate to good."

This is true of many things in life. But with these turntables, though many new turntables are poor, a great modern turntable will humble, even embarrass, these turntables.

Really nice to use like a 57 Chevy, enjoying nostalgia, vintage look and feel, but they don't stand up to one of the great (admittedly few are in that category) modern turntables. And, let's face it, that only makes sense if we pull ourselves out of the wishful (and admittedly attractive) dream world.

 

RE: Very cool Joe!, posted on August 8, 2016 at 06:04:11
Joe Roberts
Manufacturer

Posts: 412
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004
 A great anything from any era is going to be pretty good.

There were not many great turntables in the past, and I wonder how many are truly great today. It is hard to know this. I suspect not many make the grade, despite impressive looks and arcane design.

There are many highly ambitious TTs, that is for sure. Some are rather self-embarassing in this respect. Gold plated Mercedes for Sheiks.

And why do any of us need (or deserve) GREAT? Am I The Great Khan? Are you the King?

Taking stock of my lot in life, I would say I need a "very good" setup and I can be satisfied with "OK," especially on a temporary experimental research basis, knowing I have a very good TT in reserve.

My personal 301 with Schick 12" and an SPU or a DL103 I would call "very good"...good enough for me. Really excellent on jazz, blues, and Funkadelic.

At the Munich Show we had Frank Schroeder playing an antique Neumann TT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6vY7oTdql8

THAT is a great TT!!

And Schick spinning wax on a 301. Sounded like angels from above to my ear. Anything I can actively enjoy at a show 12 hours a day for a week is notable in my book

We were not embarrassed. We were proud of the sound. I'd call it top notch analog.

Playing worn old records on a Rek o Kut T12H TOTL 1953 or a stock Lenco is quite OK as a musical experience. I did this Saturday night, played all four sides of a beat copy of Jimmy Reed at Carnegie Hall on Veejay with a Pickering conical. Drank a few IPAs and had a great time all by myself.

I played "Nina at the Village Gate" on Colpix. Love the music but the pressing is totally unlistenable on most good turntables. Icy and nasty. With a fat elliptical in a junkbox Pickering XV-15 on a Rek-o-Kut B12H, it sounded very good.

This is what audio is all about, I thought to myself while entertained by this plebeian activity.

The ones who should be embarrassed are the rich dopes who pop $100k on a monster TT then lay back thinking they have the BEST.

There is no such thing!!

I know many who have abandoned modern TTs for better vintage tables because they prefer what they do. I know people who have collections of great vintage TTs and mostly use a fancy modern one.

Good modern belt drives are quieter, can be more detailed, might be more 3-D but whether they are more satisfying than an old idler wheel table is an open question that one can only answer for themselves.

In my mind, "embarassment" and "dream world" apply to those who unthinkingly accept that "new, expensive, and well-reviewed" are the keys to the heavenly kingdom.

Having been around the audio business for a long while, I guess one could say I am a well-developed cynical optimist. I think a lot of low to mid priced gear is just fine for listening to music and the majority of super high end stuff is for the mullets. Rich mullets.

Most people who make sweeping claims such as "modern beats vintage" or "vintage is always better" have not seriously made the comparison themselves. They are siding with what they like on philosophical or techno-aesthetic grounds. The world is too complicated and granular for such vast pronouncements.

One must evaluate specifics...this specific unit in this system playing the LPs that person likes. An answer arrived at through that empirical process can not be wrong.

There is much to be embarrassed about in high end audio, but a listener finding the appropriate technology to achieve comfort, enjoyment and pride in their systems is not one of them, regardless of which devices they end up with, or their age and market value.

So, horn kid, I do not buy your assertions. I need more details and a better sense of the criteria and experiences you are bringing to the dialogue to even evaluate what you are trying to say.

If you are saying that a nice modern table will beat an unrestored old clunker on a flimsy plywood plinth with a junky old 1960 tonearm with corroded headshell wires, I might agree just to beat a hasty retreat.



------------------------------

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

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