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ART 9/VPI Classic?

98.119.152.52
Posted on February 6, 2016 at 09:35:50
dirtyvinyl



Any owners with this combo?

All is well, but I have never been successful at dialing the cart in to eliminate sibalance. It
is at a level that's tolerable, but I'm wondering if others are hearing ZERO sibalance with this setup? Otherwise, I've had the ART9 for about 7 months and hear no reason to upgrade unless I get a ridiculous $$ setup.

I do alignment with a Feikert, using Baerwald and just eyeball the cart level from both front and side view. Tried nudging the SS CI L/R to hear any improvement-nada.
VTA adjustment is at its lowest in pic. Tipping the arm up doesn't seem to make a difference also. I also am using A/S just because.

I was reminded of this minor annoyance after putting a fresh belt on and lube for the bearing. Thanks in advance

 

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RE: ART 9/VPI Classic?, posted on February 6, 2016 at 11:09:05
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 I have a new Art-9 and using with a VPI 12" 3D arm wand on an older base. I've only played about 20 sides so far.

On the "Hollywood Town" DD album, I always heard some sibilance with other cartridges. However with the Art-9 at level or just above (half a VPI turn) it is completely gone. None at all, on this record or elsewhere.

I level my arm with a laser tool, and eyeball the azimuth.

So far I am extremely impressed with this cartridge. It is a confidence inspiring tracker. Reminds me of my old reel to reel. A bit more compliance is not a bad thing.

 

RE: ART 9/VPI Classic?, posted on February 6, 2016 at 11:18:54
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 I don't own the ART9, but I don't think you should be getting distorted sibilance. Maybe the problem is a damaged groove from previous mistracking by other cartridges.

Just a thought!

 

RE: ART 9/VPI Classic?, posted on February 6, 2016 at 13:00:39
dirtyvinyl
 Your experience seems to echo many on threads.

I too, am impressed overall with its performance/cost. Guessing my alignment is off just enough to occasionally remind me I don't have it spot on.

 

RE: ART 9/VPI Classic?, posted on February 6, 2016 at 13:07:20
dirtyvinyl
 Yes, the problem is with the exact records that I take to shows which sound amazing.

Wanting to avoid hauling the table to a shop, so suggestions are welcome.

 

RE: ART 9/VPI Classic?, posted on February 6, 2016 at 13:39:58
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 Try a different cartridge. If you don't get distorted sibilance with other cartridges, then something must be wrong with the ART9. Perhaps it's an alignment problem such as VTA/SRA or something. On the other hand, if you have the same silibance problem with other cartridges, then it's probably not the ART9.

Good luck,
John Elison

 

From the pic..., posted on February 6, 2016 at 14:17:16
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4583
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
 The art 9 looks a tad lower in the rear of the cart. Could just be the pic playing tricks with my eyes.

Is there any surface noise during or between the songs? If so, the cartridge is not aligned properly.

I had issues like this when I put the AT15Sa in the technics SL-1300 mkII couldn't get it to work correctly then with a Arc protractor from the Vinyl Engine site. Got to align but had a tad of Sibilance to the music until I my Wally VTA tool got it level and that snapped it right into focus. All that sibilance was now gone and the cart sounded like everyone said it was suppose to sound.

Those ML type of stylus are very finicky when it comes to VTA and doesn't take much to get them out of the perfect sound from my experience with radial arms. But when they are set just right, very nice sounding with no harshness or sibilance at all and are very quiet between the songs.

 

RE: ART 9/VPI Classic?, posted on February 6, 2016 at 14:34:49
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011
 In my experience, a properly aligned cartridge should not suffer from sibilance except perhaps with trace levels on the odd record which has been cut with a VMA which is further away from the norm.
It is possible that the stylus zenith is not perfect in which case, despite your best efforts in setting HTA to Baerwald alignment, the effective alignment is not. However, let us assume that the cartridge has been correctly made.

The specification for SRA is 0 to 5° so you can imagine that setting your cartridge at the suggested 2° angle is not going to be perfect for all records. In your case, it seems odd that you have several records all with the same issue which suggests an alignment issue.

Sibilance is generally related to an SRA issue,azimuth and/or VTF being on the low side, or incorrect antiskate level. However, the first 3 are the most likely areas to explore first. Alternatively the cutting engineer may have set the cutting head angle out of spec. However, since you observe this problem with multiple records, then unless they are all cut by the same engineer this is less likely, unless you really have randomly selected all records that have the same fault!
A LC stylus is very demanding of accurate arm height and eye-balling settings is very unreliable without jigs. Even then, some fine tuning is required to dial in the sweet spot. However, it should be achievable especially with a cartridge such as yours.

How have you set the VTF? Nominal is not necessarily the optimum value and generally offensive levels of sibilance would imply an inability of the cartridge to track high frequency content which has a high velocity and acceleration of the tip. If the sibilance is biased more to one channel than this suggests antiskate as being a contributing factor.

How have you determined your antiskate level? With the VPI unipivot arms, combined with the antiskate mechanism, setting the correct antiskate could be challenging since the twisted wire is partially contributing by differing amounts across the record and the unipivot is such that azimuth may be shifting slightly over the record side even after you set it with your tools.

Given the greater bearing radius of Line Contact styli, stylus Azimuth is a critical parameter to optimise since (compared to an elliptical or spherical tip), there is less error allowable before the tip is no longer sitting in the groove in the desired position on each wall. Since you have already attempted to set this parameter with tools, just confirm that the tip is as close to perpendicular to the groove as possible. Electrical azimuth is not necessarily going to be the same. For me, I prefer to sacrifice symmetric channel separation and ensure the tip is vertical in the groove.


Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: ART 9/VPI Classic?, posted on February 7, 2016 at 07:47:44
dirtyvinyl
 "Have you set the VTF?"
Presently set to specified max 2 grams. What is considered "safe" value outside of this? Is 1-2 grams a big deal?

Have you determined your antiskate level?
Antiskate has been established using the supplied Orings totaling .5 grams.
I have also tried using NO a/s.

I may surrender and just take it to a shop.

 

After each adjustment....., posted on February 7, 2016 at 08:53:24
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4583
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
 Have you gone back and referenced the alignment again? When I set my AT micro lines up on pivot/radial arms after I set the weight and VTA I go back and check the alignment again. Make sure the azimuth is set correctly too. These types of cartridges are very finicky and have to be setup just right. I know it can really try your patience but hang in there.

Btw, I just got the Audio technical AT33ptg II and I have not heard any sibilance at all. Even brofore I got it dialed in. But I do have it on a linear tracking tone arm. But I do know the VTA does have big effect on the sound quality.

Try a new or seldom use record that you know doesn't have any issues.

Hope this helps!

 

RE: After each adjustment....., posted on February 7, 2016 at 09:54:23
dirtyvinyl
 Yes, thanks for the reminder.
I will go thru the routine a few more times, if no success, off to shop it goes.

 

RE: ART 9/VPI Classic?, posted on February 7, 2016 at 10:41:38
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011
 The range is 1.6 to 2g with a recommended nominal of 1.8g. I'm not sure how you set your VTF, but I recommend using precision scales - VTF is a very important parameter to get correct as is arm height.

I don't understand your A/S setting. Are you saying that the provided scale indicates 0.5 or are you saying that the effective ABSOLUTE mass is 0.5g? Either way, this is wAAAAaaaay off. The effective A/S amount should be roughly 10% of the VTF. If the scale for A/S is to match the VTF, then you should be aiming for the same number as the VTF.
Again, it sounds like your setting is far too coarse.

Probably best to take in to someone with accurate tools!
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: ART 9/VPI Classic?, posted on February 7, 2016 at 11:58:04
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011
 I should clarify what I wrote about VTF - you should never need to go outside the recommended range and you are already at the maximum. If you are using a test record to set VTF, an increase of 0.1g generally helps you track an additional 10um. For example if you get a clean 60um tone but slight buzzing on 70um, then increasing 0.1g should get you to a clean tone on 70um. 0.1g over the 2g maximum probably won't do harm, but to be honest AT are generally very good in my experience and I rarely need to adjust higher than the nominal VTF and still get at least 70um (usually 80um) tracking ability.

The range is defined such that you achieve approximately the correct VTA/SRA relationship (it sets the mean deflection position and ideally you want the VTF such that you get the designed VTA and the cantilever can deflect upwards and downwards symmetrically still giving the same mean reference position when tracking vertical modulations in the groove) and still meet tracking specifications and frequency response. Going outside this range (upwards) will risk damaging the suspension and will generally start to compromise the frequency response as you increase the VTF. Going under of course is just going risk mistracking and record damage and accelerated stylus wear.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

VTF at 1.82 is exactly were I have my AT33 set at...., posted on February 7, 2016 at 13:04:33
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4583
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
 it sounds well balance from the top end to the bottom end. With all the AT's I had/have I never have to even get close to the upper limit. Always sound best just right in the middle of the VTF range.

From another look at the pic on the OP, it looks like a lot of dust and other stuff on the LP. I don't know if this is being left during playback and if this is one of the LP's being used that the OP is refering to the ART 9 with issues. A nice clean record right off the start would help with the process of elimination. Just one less thing to worry about. :) Just trying to help troubleshoot with the reported issues.

 

Have any of the albums you are using...., posted on February 7, 2016 at 13:12:15
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4583
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
 been treated with any preservative or any at all other than the cleaning fluids you may have use on them. The reason I ask is I once tried a home brew of cleaner and it created issues like that until I recleaned it with some Nitty Griity fluid by hand with a brush and rinse with distilled water and then cleaned on a Nitty Griity Pro 1. After that it was nice and quiet again. :)

 

RE: VTF at 1.82 is exactly were I have my AT33 set at...., posted on February 7, 2016 at 13:22:17
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011
 Good observation! You know I got so carried away on the other possible alignment issues, I completely forgot about mentioning the most obvious... cleaning the record!!! I'm glad you did though - I guess it's something some of us take for granted :)

Over the years, I've changed how I use the test records to set VTF. When I got hold of my first test disc (Ortofon TC-002), I used to obsess about tracking the highest level cleanly, until I realised that it wasn't the whole story and it only tested the suspension. When I accepted that some cartridges simply couldn't get to 80um (as I only had the Ortofon test disc at that time) and then focussed on what sounded best, I found myself back in the middle of the VTF range or thereabouts.
Like you, I always start off at nominal now, and nudge up or down if absolutely necessary to clean things up sonically.




Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

I have a buddy that stresses over the measurement..., posted on February 7, 2016 at 13:45:00
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4583
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
 things with test records and using a scope to set his Azimuth. He use the TEST LP's and tries to get his cartridge/tonearm to track the very last torture track. Always fiddling with with his table and wonders why he can't get it to do the test record or other measurements he read it should do. He says I why can't i get my table to sound like your? The first thing I ask him once it's all aligned properly and setup right is, How does it sound? If it sounds great then leave it alone! :) I always tell him let your ears be the judge! But I do tell him that setting the cartridge up correctly is important and not torture tracks.

One cartridge I did have to go up to the limit was my Shelter 901. It sounds best right at the limit and anything lower would not sound good or I would have sibilance type sound on some LP's.

 

RE: VTF at 1.82 is exactly were I have my AT33 set at...., posted on February 7, 2016 at 20:50:13
dirtyvinyl
 "From another look at the pic on the OP, it looks like a lot of dust and other stuff on the LP."

I took another look, and found that my camera lense is quite dirty. I did however, find all 3 steps of the Feikert gauge off a smidge. Also fussed with A/S.Not wanting to REALLY devote time and patience, it didn't noticeably improve or worsen the sibilance issue.

This video actually reminded what realistic expectations I should have. Even through a crappy tablet speaker, one can hear a nice system. When I play this cut, a word containing SH,CH or has an S, is exaggerated, hissy.





 

Possibly too much antiskate and azimuth is off, posted on February 8, 2016 at 06:24:49
gkirkos
Audiophile

Posts: 201
Location: Seattle
Joined: February 6, 2015
 nt

 

RE: ART 9/VPI Classic?, posted on February 8, 2016 at 07:53:13
SgreenP@MSN.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3538
Joined: April 23, 2007
 ..for ME...the only way to get proper azimuth with a VPI arm is to use the Fozgometer. If you don't have one, and can't borrow one, take it to a shop that can do a proper adjustment. If you are in/near Scottsdale, Arizona, you can borrow mine.

 

RE: ART 9/VPI Classic?, posted on February 8, 2016 at 13:04:57
dirtyvinyl
 Screen, I do suspect just having the cart visually level isn't enough to eliminate the sibilance.

Your offer is appreciated-thanks! I'm making plans for the road trip to the shop.
Fortunately, not a major drive, just not looking forward to it.

 

My sibilance experience, posted on February 8, 2016 at 19:35:35
teenage diplomat
Audiophile

Posts: 896
Location: burke, va usa
Joined: February 3, 2001
 I am using your cartridge's lower output brother, the AT ART 7, on my 12" VPI 3D arm/VPI HRX. I too had some sibilance issues, but relatively minor ones. I too used the mechanical antiskate devise VPI provides but doesn't like. After getting a bad case of OCD trying to eliminate every last vestigial smeared "s" appearing exclusively in the left channel, I started thinking about whether the antiskate could be the problem. So I disconnected the line from the antiskate lever. Then I rechecked azimuth with my Fozgometer. I had to shift the Counterintuitive that came with my arm in precisely the opposite direction than I had it set with the antiskate operational, interestingly enough. Anyway, when finished, the left channel sibilance disappeared. My hypothesis is that even at its lowest setting, I was getting too much antiskating force using the mechanical device when you consider that the wire to the lemo connector exerts some antiskating on its own. Easy enough for you to try, if you want. Just pull the upper black donut off the upper antiskate arm and remove the fishing line. Good luck.

 

RE: My sibilance experience, posted on February 8, 2016 at 20:39:15
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 A bit OT, but how would you compare your ART-7 to your DL-S1?

 

AT ART7 vs. Dl-S1, posted on February 8, 2016 at 21:01:59
teenage diplomat
Audiophile

Posts: 896
Location: burke, va usa
Joined: February 3, 2001
 They are both wonderful cartridges. The Denon is a bit richer in the midrange, while the AT is somewhat more detailed, dynamic, and has a more crystalline treble. They are roughly even in bass depth. I could live happily with either, and the DL-S1 that I own is the AT's backup. The differences are subtle. Ive directly compared an LP played with the AT with a 24/88 digital copy previously made on an Alisis Masterlink with the Denon, and they were very hard to tell apart.

 

RE: ART 9/VPI Classic?, posted on March 13, 2016 at 07:06:06
blade
Audiophile

Posts: 173
Joined: October 24, 2000
 To the OP,

I, too have a Classic. I currently use a Denon DL-103R with Zu Audio body. This cartridge is in compliance with the JMW 10.5i SE tonearm.

How do you find the Art 9 in terms of compliance?

Also, do you have to change the dropped counterweight to a lighter version or add headshell weight?

 

RE: ART 9/VPI Classic?, posted on March 13, 2016 at 09:04:01
dirtyvinyl
 Blade, I have the 140G weight which came with the table.

No additional weight is required. Tracking @2 grams, the counterweight is near the pivot point-the desired position.

I don't know the EXACT compliance spec range for the Classic, but in another forum, HW mentions the ART 9 being a nice choice, and yes the sound is impressive.

Update on my sibilance issue. So I seem to hear more pronounced SSS in vocals and some other exaggerated stuff thru my RIGHT channel.
I've been putting off having the table looked at, since it's tolerable and not apparent with ALL vocals.
Does this mean the stylus needs to rest more or less on the offending side of the record groove?





 

RE: ART 9/VPI Classic?, posted on March 13, 2016 at 10:06:15
SgreenP@MSN.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3538
Joined: April 23, 2007
 When I dial in a cartridge, if the recommendation is 1.8 from the manufacturer, that means that the cartridge was designed so that the absolute proper placement of the magnet, coil, etc. is positioned as intended at 1.8 grms. I am pretty steadfast in aiming toward that vtf. When I raise or lower the back end slightly to hear if any improvement happens, I keep that setting, but readjust the vtf to that recommended setting. Remember too that if the arm is raised/lowered, it will change the effective length of stylus to pivot, so again, you must break out the protractor to make absolutely positive that the cartridge stylus is in the exact spot needed. I found that proper azimuth affects soundstage, but not tracking so much. I use no anti-skate (for ME, that gives me the best sound). I've set up many arms and cartridges, and can't remember any problem that wasn't fixed by very careful.. painstakingly precise alignment, if the cartridge was not damaged in some way.

 

Something is definitely not right with your setup or cartridge., posted on March 13, 2016 at 10:10:45
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4583
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
 I have the AT33ptg II and this is the farthest thing from what you are hearing from your ART9. Too bad you couldn't have that cartridge setup on someone else table and see if it does the same thing.

You shouldn't be hearing this type of sibilance with this cartridge.

Could it be your LP's are damaged from the previous cartridge? I know we suggested some things but did you ever try an LP that you know is not damaged and cleaned before you play it? It's just a process of elimination and one thing we can check off the check list to narrow down what it could be. I keep going back to that OP picture and can't get past the stuff I see is only on the LP. If the lense on the camera was dirty those dust looking particles would be all over the pic and not just on the LP and they are in sharp focus in respect to the cartridge and the playing surface of the LP, everything else is blurred away from the LP and cartridge. I'm not here to start trouble, I really want to find out and help you out but your Moniker is "dirtyvinyl" and the Picture doe look like a dirty LP.

Could it be what you are using to clean your LP's with? I did a homebrew fluid and it gave me that type of sound. I had to go back and reclean the 3 albums I cleaned with the DIY fluid with Nitty Griity fluid. It took 2 washings to get it back to the way they sound before the DIY cleaning.

The only other time I heard something like this was with a cartridge/arm combo was a mismatch. I had a Benz Glider II MO cartridge on a Linn Akito arm. When I put the Expressimo modd Rega arm on my Linn table with the Glider, that sibilance was all gone. It wasn't too bad with the Akito but it was there and it would drive me up the wall. When I did try the Glider on my ET-2 arm when I first set it up on my Teres table. That Glider sounded great! I was really shocked at how good it sounds with the ET-2 arm.

Hopefully its not that but you definitely need to get that looked at. You should be in musical heaven with that ART9 and VPI table. Too bad you didn't live in Southern California, I would have you bring it by and put that cartridge on my ET-2 and then we would know for sure if its the cartridge or your arm/setup causing this.

With my AT33ptg II I hear zero sibilance everything is perfect and still amazes me at how good this Cartridge sounds. You should be having that plus way better sound than me with the ART9.

Hope you find the issue/s soon!

 

RE: Something is definitely not right with your setup or cartridge., posted on March 13, 2016 at 10:54:15
dirtyvinyl
 Your response is appreciated.

I do understand your stressing one of the most basic requirements to perfect play-CLEAN RECORD. My cleaning method is low tech-spin clean and a quick brush before play.

I've got some down time today,so a little fussing is going on.

 

Ok, I think that may be the issue with the Spin Clean., posted on March 13, 2016 at 11:12:15
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4583
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
 I have one too and I got background noise and other very faint sounds with it and with my AT33ptg II. I had to use the GEM Dandy to get rid of that noise issues from the LPs that the spin clean put on the LP. It's something in their cleaning Fluid. Also you can try a cleaning with Distilled water as a last step after the spin clean process, Hopefully that will help. Also do as the other person said about rechecking all the alignments, VTA, and VTF after each adjustment to make sure they are dead on.

Also Try getting a fairly cheap PHK RCM. This will make your vinyl sound great. I picked one up and it works great! Paulo is really nice and response fast to emails. Shipping is pretty fast too. Check it out!

I wish you the best at getting this issue resolved once and for all. So you can start really enjoying your system/music.

 

RE: ART 9/VPI Classic?, posted on March 13, 2016 at 11:37:39
dirtyvinyl
 Screen,
great info, thanks.

The MOST DEMANDING factor is my patience, as you mention this whole process is a drag.

I think I notice the problem is reduced WITHOUT A/S?
Actually spending some free time fussing, so giving it another shot.

 

RE: ART 9/VPI Classic?, posted on March 13, 2016 at 19:44:41
blade
Audiophile

Posts: 173
Joined: October 24, 2000
 I appreciate your feedback!

 

Are you sure its not from groove damage?..., posted on March 14, 2016 at 05:00:05
EdAInWestOC
Audiophile

Posts: 6828
Location: Glen Burnie, MD USA
Joined: December 18, 2003
 It can drive you crazy until you realize which LPs are damaged and which are not. It helps to start with a new LP and give it its first spin.

Ed
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof

 

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