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Uncurable warp

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Posted on February 6, 2016 at 00:15:10
akolegov
Audiophile

Posts: 979
Location: Russia
Joined: July 1, 2010
 I have an LP record which has a "figure 8" warp which does not affect stylus movement. Nevertheless, I tried to cure it using Vinyl Flattener and Groovy Pouch. I made several attempts (12 hours, then 18 hours, then 25 hours, then approx. 40 hours), but the warp still remains. The record is modern reissue of Jan & Dean "Save for a Rainy Day" made by SunDazed.

I always liked the quality of Sundazed records (a truly analog sound of old days), but this propeller-type warp is annoying.

Should I give it up or put it for additional 48, 60, etc. hours? I don't want to use an oven...

 

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RE: Uncurable warp, posted on February 6, 2016 at 05:56:53
Monchi
Audiophile

Posts: 576
Location: Cork, Ireland
Joined: June 4, 2007
 I don't understand what you mean by a 'figure 8' warp. Do you mean a record that looks like a 'potato chip', i.e. very warped with seriously bad undulations?

I have come across records that are not merely warped at the edge but also right through the record surface. This appears to me to be a serious pressing fault and cannot be fixed by one of the proprietary devices. I have 3 such records in my collection, 1 (a 2 LP set from MoFi) and 2 Pallas German 2015 pressings which are otherwise perfect.

However, I have flattened records that you would have imagined to be total write offs. I think you should put away your Sundazed LP for a few weeks and put it on your flattener again in 14-21 days. Repeat as often as you can allowing time between. Unless it is one of those LPs that I have described above, it seems to me that unless it is a catastrophic pressing fault you should be able to restore it. It often takes time with repeated treatments to get an improvement. I see this all the time!

 

RE: Uncurable warp, posted on February 6, 2016 at 08:47:41
akolegov
Audiophile

Posts: 979
Location: Russia
Joined: July 1, 2010
 Sorry I had some difficulty in describing the warp in correct terms. It does look like a potato chip, or, rather, like a "flattened potato chip", which means that the warp is not so strong after several treatments. Moreover, one side of the record is almost perfectly flat, but the other side - as I decribed.

Will try again in a couple of weeks - will put it for 48 hours or so...

 

RE: Uncurable warp, posted on February 6, 2016 at 09:33:07
Monchi
Audiophile

Posts: 576
Location: Cork, Ireland
Joined: June 4, 2007
 Yes, it sounds like my infamous U.S. copy of Dwight Yoakam 'Just Looking for Hit'. It was severely warped (potato chip) on one side and flat on the other. That is hard to imagine but it happens with vinyl records. I put this LP on the Disc Flattener on numerous occasions back in 2005, it took probably 25 or more sessions before it flattened out. I played it last weekend and it is still flat. Shrink Wrap caused the warp in that case. It had been sealed in shrink wrap for over 10 years. It was an Ebay purchase.

It seems to me that the first four/five treatments do not yield very noticeable changes with some LPs( Japan and U.S. mostly), so you have to persist. You could maybe let a few days or a week go by before you put your LP in the Flattener again. Also, reverse sides every so often although you probably will find that you are getting better results with either Side 1 or Side 2 face down on the Flattener. I have had Japanese LPs that were slightly warped and four or five sessions on the Flattener produced no result. I put them away for a few weeks and tried again later and the records flattened out. In fact a Japan copy of U2's 'The Joshua Tree'(edge warp)was the exact same when I tried it in the past few weeks. It is now flat. The U2 was a lightweight LP as well and this makes flattening more difficult.

Good luck with your Sundazed LP! It is all trial and error really. I find 180 gram LPs easier to flatten than lighter weight LPs although some people appear to say the opposite?

 

RE: Uncurable warp, posted on February 6, 2016 at 13:30:37
akolegov
Audiophile

Posts: 979
Location: Russia
Joined: July 1, 2010
 Thanks for the encouragement, I will proceed with this record!

 

RE: Uncurable warp, posted on February 6, 2016 at 14:38:00
akolegov
Audiophile

Posts: 979
Location: Russia
Joined: July 1, 2010
 How long was your average session?

 

RE: Uncurable warp, posted on February 8, 2016 at 04:29:15
Monchi
Audiophile

Posts: 576
Location: Cork, Ireland
Joined: June 4, 2007
 In my case one session is 4 hours that is 2 hours heating and 2 hours cooling. You should do 'complete' sessions but I don't see any problem in varying the heating cycle although I would stay with the 2 hours cooling, just for safety sake.

Speaking of new records, I recently got two copies of Rhiannon Giddens 'Tomorrow Is My Turn' which were very seriously warped, for a new record??? This was pressed at Pallas in early 2015. It took 4 cycles for each record, that is to say 4 heating cycles and 4 cooling cycles giving a total of 32 hours. I was very surprised to see how very badly warped both records were, potato chip warps in each case. Defective pressings in both cases as well, unfortunately! The second copy was a replacement for the first defective copy, ironically! The records are now 'pond flat' though,as they say.

I am currently working on a 1973 U.S. Copy of John Prine 'Sweet Revenge' which I got from the U.S. just after Christmas. It is a used LP and it was badly dish warped on one side with an edge warp also. That is now almost fixed and I just reversed the record yesterday on the Disc Flattener (dished side up this time). I checked it a short while ago and the edge warp has now flattened out quite well. The dish warp is fixed. Again, this did not happen with 4/5 cycles. I would say it took 10 cycles with gaps in between. It will take 1 or 2 more cycles to get the edge warp to 99% perfect. I am not happy with say, an 80% fix when it comes to warped vinyl. With 'standard'/non audiophile U.S. vinyl, it is impossible to get a record 'pond flat'. But, and I readily admit this, I am fussier than most people. There is a bit of OCD involved, I think!

 

RE: Uncurable warp, posted on February 9, 2016 at 16:14:12
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011
 Hi

How thick is the pressing you are trying to flatten? I was dealing with a record that was about 1.14mm thick. I noticed that tightening the wing nut by the recommended amount (well you can't really tighten much further anyway!) doesn't close up the gap enough to flatten the warp properly. It requires additional clamping on the two wings of the outer metal VinylFlat slabs themselves to "fix" the warp.

Trying to fix clamps inside the pouch is challenging given the clearance since you can't use ordinary clamps - I suggest using string to tie the wings of each half of the VinylFLat.

Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: Uncurable warp, posted on February 9, 2016 at 21:39:18
akolegov
Audiophile

Posts: 979
Location: Russia
Joined: July 1, 2010
 It's interesting...

The record is thin, but I didn't measure it. Just put it again for a new session...

Yesterday I successfully flattened a record made in U.K. in the 80s which had an edge warp (it took 12 hours)...

 

RE: Uncurable warp, posted on February 9, 2016 at 22:22:34
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011
 My point was really to check after you thumb tighten the wing nut, that there are no gaps visible. I realise that with bad warps the weight of the upper plate is supposed to flatten it, but if there is even a tiny warp in the groovy rings or the plates themselves (which are unlikely to be perfectly flat) then applying a little extra mechanical force on the two wings will help.

You shouldn't find any difficulty with thin 80s records if you can get the plates more tightly clamped.

I used my Groovy Pouch for the first time (normally it's the oven) over the weekend. The thermal contact is very poor (made worse by the wingnut lifting the centre of the pouch and reducing the thermal contact area. The design is relying on the Velcro seal and the plates getting warm enough to heat the air. I measured the surface temperature of the upper plate using an IR thermometer and segment of Scotch Black Vinyl Insulation tape which has an emissivity of 0.95 and got a surface temperature on the outer plate of 47.4°C if you want to compare with what your pouch is doing. Accurate surface temperature measurements are not possible with contact methods and you will consistently under read by several degrees or more depending on the actual temperature.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

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