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Put away the VPI, got a Linn

216.190.112.141

Posted on January 28, 2016 at 12:12:39
gkirkos
Audiophile

Posts: 201
Location: Seattle
Joined: February 6, 2015

and love it.

After years of trying to get my Scoutmaster to sound good, I gave up.

Very happy with a restored vintage LP12.

A very different sound, but one I love. So much music.

 

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RE: Put away the VPI, got a Linn, posted on January 28, 2016 at 13:55:42
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
So tell us what was done to the Linn. I have an early 70's almost all original LP12 with a Grace 707. The only changes are new springs, grommets and a felt mat (plus a lot of adjustment to make it bounce right. It sounds good to me.

Dave

 

Congrats! which spec is it?, posted on January 28, 2016 at 15:05:10
kuma
Audiophile

Posts: 10254
Location: IN
Joined: July 8, 2001
Sondek is a relic from the past but I love the music it makes.

Mine are not brought up to the latest Linn's specs but just the way I like it to sound.

 

I also have a Linn, but, posted on January 28, 2016 at 18:25:45
JeffH
Audiophile

Posts: 4574
Location: Orange County, So Cal
Joined: April 5, 2000
if you don't mind me asking, what specifically didn't you like about the VPI and what upgrades were done to it. I have a buddy that is toying with the idea of buying a TT and is leaning in the VPI direction.

 

Arm, cartridge and phono change?, posted on January 28, 2016 at 18:56:55
valvesonly
Audiophile

Posts: 755
Location: Ontario
Joined: May 27, 2005
It might just be a preferred musical style presentation..

or

Apart from the merits of the two widely accepted turntables/styles, it seems that more than the TT could be impacting this. Do we have arm, cartridge or phono changes as well. We also have synergy with the audio chain to consider.

Asking out of interest considering the quality of the listed components.
.
must..NOT..resist..."upgraditis"

 

Isn't that true with any change of component?, posted on January 28, 2016 at 19:27:04
That it might suit one's musical preference or system architecture. And it seems pretty clear that the arms are different as well as it would be somewhat unusual to see an Ittok, or Ekos, on a Scoutmaster or a JMW on a Linn.

 

RE: Put away the VPI, got a Linn, posted on January 29, 2016 at 05:45:01
AudioSoul
Audiophile

Posts: 4594
Location: north central AZ
Joined: July 9, 2005

Al Scoutmasters sound good. They are just not to your liking, If the Linn floats your boat that's great....

 

NO, posted on January 29, 2016 at 07:54:45
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17260
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
"And it seems pretty clear that the arms are different as well as it would be somewhat unusual to see an Ittok, or Ekos, on a Scoutmaster or a JMW on a Linn. "

Without trying the Ittok on the VPI or the JMW on the Linn you will never know if it's the arm or the TT you are liking.

It's best to only change one component at a time.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Put away the VPI, got a Linn, posted on January 29, 2016 at 08:24:12
daleda
Audiophile

Posts: 741
Joined: March 6, 2002
Did exactly the same thing, sold my Scout and SDS, restored and modded a Thorens TD 145 MK1 and never looked back. Suspended TT's are where it's at IMO.

 

DD vs suspended, posted on January 29, 2016 at 08:54:56
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
Funnily enough, we have now on the same page a thread saying direct drive is where it's at and another saying suspended tables are where it's at. Yet, there are no suspended dd turntables in the world, so far as I know.

Whatever floats your boat may not necessarily float the other guy's boat, but that's OK.

 

Suspended DD table, posted on January 29, 2016 at 10:10:30
M3 lover
Audiophile

Posts: 6586
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Contributor
  Since:
July 4, 2007
Hi Lew,

While I've never seen a suspended DD either, apparently no less than Mitch Cotter thought it was a good idea. See link from SoundFountain -

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing, if you can fake that you've got it made." Groucho

 

Technics had some suspended DD tables, posted on January 29, 2016 at 10:26:44
tubesforever
Manufacturer

Posts: 10505
Location: Great Basin
Joined: May 7, 2005
Lew, I agree that suspended DD tables are rare and never in the higher echelon models.

ScottRT owns an SL 1600MKII and it sounded amazing every time he played it for me.

"Help support our school's Music programs"


 

RE: DD vs suspended, posted on January 29, 2016 at 10:41:49
theophile
Audiophile

Posts: 1264
Location: australia
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Pioneer Exclusive P3 and P3a were both suspended. The same for Denon DP 1000

 

Suspended DD are as common as ...., posted on January 29, 2016 at 11:02:14
Penguin
Audiophile

Posts: 7116
Location: Delaware
Joined: August 5, 2001
well pretty common :) all the Duals are suspended and IIRC all the Goldmunds were suspended. others mentioned the P3 and the DM-100...

But you are right most Japanese DD tables are not suspended.

dee
;-D




True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

Tubes!!!!!!, posted on January 29, 2016 at 11:03:43
Penguin
Audiophile

Posts: 7116
Location: Delaware
Joined: August 5, 2001
I have been chasing ya....

Glad you are still kicking.

dee
;-D

True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

RE: Tubes!!!!!!, posted on January 29, 2016 at 11:27:34
tubesforever
Manufacturer

Posts: 10505
Location: Great Basin
Joined: May 7, 2005
Privately email the phone number where I can call you.

My pain threshold is met, so I need to sign off for now.

"Help support our school's Music programs"


 

RE: Put away the VPI, got a Linn, posted on January 29, 2016 at 12:09:55
SgreenP@MSN.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3536
Joined: April 23, 2007
gk...glad you're happy...just an observation. Linn tables very much like light supporting structures while VPI's really like very solid ones. Could you be listening to a VPI on a light table??

 

As if putting things in caps makes them true, LOL...., posted on January 29, 2016 at 12:11:57
I don't think that your point holds any water at all. And I don't think that it is possible to isolate the turntable. A turntable and arm is a system. Some play well together and some don't.

In this case, it's very possible that, if both tables were mounted with the JMW, the OP might prefer the VPI, and if both had the Ittok, the Linn might be preferred. But try it out and tell us how this is working out for ya. Or, as you would say, "TRY IT OUT AND TELL US HOW THIS IS WORKING OUT FOR YA." LOL.

The OP's preference is clearly for his new turntable, tonearm and cartridge combo vs. his old rig. I don't imagine that he is interested in pulling the whole mess apart; he is enjoying playing music. And, reading carefully, he never said that the Linn rig was the better rig, just that he preferred it. I might prefer the VPI, and I suppose that's why all of these different marques are on the market and selling. As I said, it's rather personal, kind of like shoes.

 

RE: Put away the VPI, got a Linn, posted on January 29, 2016 at 12:30:29
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
fantastic , My LP-12 always delivers ..... :)

 

RE: Congrats! which spec is it?, posted on January 29, 2016 at 12:33:49
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
A relic , How so .... ?

 

RE: Put away the VPI, got a Linn, posted on January 29, 2016 at 12:40:39
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
Did exactly the same thing, sold my Scout and SDS, restored and modded a Thorens TD 145 MK1 and never looked back. Suspended TT's are where it's at IMO. -Deleda


Many roads to Nirvana, but can agree on the suspended table bit, my suspended tables never fail to deliver and it does take a mighty effort ($$$) to defeat them..

anyway ,

Not getting all these responses about the LP-12, it was good for me in 1980 and it is still good now, much better than any SL1200 i ever owned , yet many today are going gaga over SL1200's like they are something special.


 

Just ask any Linn hater :D, posted on January 29, 2016 at 12:54:44
kuma
Audiophile

Posts: 10254
Location: IN
Joined: July 8, 2001
Seriously when I first got it, the first word out of my friend was: 'What are you doing with that relic? '
It is an old design albeit refined over 40 years and early ones were undeniably *colourd* however pleasant, and it still has that bouncy bouncy suspended sound ( which I happen to like ).

Super duper tech table, Linn is not.

But sort of amasing that this simpleton device can make such a great music captivated many music lovers all over the world.

 

I have one of those Scottrt-modded 1600mk2 tables, posted on January 29, 2016 at 13:44:54
Biff
Audiophile

Posts: 7527
Location: Portland, Oregon
Joined: January 27, 2002
And it does sound very nice.

 

"A turntable and arm is a system.", posted on January 29, 2016 at 16:43:55
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17260
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
That's an interesting way to look at it.

The turntable, arm and cartridge are just part of a system.

The equipment in the recording studio are part of that same system as well.

I'm sure that your point holds no water at all.

BTW The all caps was a typo.

Tre'


Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Technics had some suspended DD tables, posted on January 29, 2016 at 17:36:13
Erocka2000
Audiophile

Posts: 302
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: April 26, 2011
Here's a high end suspended direct drive, the STST Motus II, that I'd love to hear someday. There's just not many over here in the US so I don't know anyone who's heard it.

http://www.puresound.info/id9.html

 

I went the other way...., posted on January 30, 2016 at 00:06:31
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4560
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
I sold the Linn and kept the Teres 255 and have never looked back.

My Linn had to be setup almost perfectly to sound its best (yes, I had it on a light rigid support in the Target Turntable rack). I had a friend that was a Linn LP12 specialist set it up and then later had the now late Brooks Berdan set it up again. Even though Brook got it to sound better it was just too much of hassle to to keep it tune up to optimum working order. If the tonearm cable was leaning on the rack it affected the sound. Seemed like anything would affect the sound. You take off the bottom cover it affected the sound. It did sound best with the the LP12 with Vahalla power supply plugged into the PS Audio P300 power generator.

I just wanted something that I didn't have to worry about ever 4-6 months with setup. Once I got the Teres 255, I was in musical heaven now. I never had the issues with the Teres that I had with the Linn LP12. It had that pace the Linn had but the sound was way better in my system. Plus, the Teres 255 and ET-2 tonearm are very good match.

 

The Technics SL-1300MKII...., posted on January 30, 2016 at 00:23:52
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4560
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
had a suspension.

 

Touchee', already..., posted on January 30, 2016 at 12:42:05
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
and I think you mean Denon DP100, not DP1000, which was a low ender.
OK, I'll take either a Pioneer Exclusive P3 or Denon DP100, please. These are not garden variety.

 

RE: Suspended DD table, posted on January 30, 2016 at 12:45:10
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
I know the Mitch Cotter adaptations of Denon and other DD turntables are revered. Never heard one. However, the Exclusive P3 and Denon DP100 are big exceptions to my blanket statement. I think the Sony XS9 had a suspension incorporated into its plinth; you had to own both to get the suspension.

 

RE: Suspended DD are as common as ...., posted on January 30, 2016 at 16:35:35
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
I'm not taking this too seriously, but though all Duals may be suspended, not all Duals are DD. You've got idler- and belt-drives in that mix. Seems like they had a basic suspension platform onto which they threw whatever drive system was in vogue. This is not to say that some of those are not excellent in their price category.

 

Agree!, posted on January 30, 2016 at 17:39:13
amandarae
Audiophile

Posts: 2591
Location: So.Cal
Joined: November 30, 2004
I kept my Teres 255 as well. Went back to the original "String" than the "mylar Tape" upgrade.
Long time ago, I compared it to a friends Super Scoutmaster (the one equipped with a metal ring record stabilizer). My friend does not have a Super Scoutmaster anymore.

I do have a Garrard 301 with Schick 12" arm and TD 124 MKI with SME 3012. Also have a TD124 MKII with SME 3009. Still enjoy the Teres after all these years.

 

My experience also. . . , posted on January 30, 2016 at 20:03:01
risabet
Audiophile

Posts: 3197
Location: SoCal
Joined: January 10, 2005
In comparing my heavily modded LP12 to a couple of VPIs I simply preferred the sound of my Linn. They are very different sounding, IMO due to the differing thoughts on suspensions.


Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition.

Adam Smith

 

If the Sondek gets off-kilter in 4-6 month, something is wrong..., posted on January 30, 2016 at 22:05:34
kuma
Audiophile

Posts: 10254
Location: IN
Joined: July 8, 2001
if it's set up right it should stay for some time.
My main Sondek is untouched over a year. I thought I might have to bring up the arm corner spring a bit ( this one carries the most weigh so it *can* sag over time ) but no need so far.

And my original low spec Sondek stayed fine for about 5 years till the top plate started to rattle.

 

I'm happy it works for you for me......, posted on January 31, 2016 at 07:08:39
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4560
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
It just was too fussy. Something was always affecting the sound in some way be it the tone arm cable hanging the wrong way off or touching the stand or something. The longest I went without having to mess with it was about 9 to 11 months after I bought it. Then, I was noticing things in sound here and there. I had the Linn specialist even come over to the house to setup again on the stand and yes it did have that proper bounce all the specialist talk about. I loved the sound when everything was working properly.

So yes, you are correct something was wrong. So out went the Linn LP12 with all it's upgrades with all it's synergy and how it's supposed to bounce properly talk and in came the Teres 255/ET-2/Shelter 901. I have been very happy with this table and no regrets on getting rid of the Linn LP12. It has been a way better table than the Linn LP12 in my system. I hear way more music/detail and more quiet passages from all my LP's but with that same pace that the Linn had. With Teres, I have had it since 2003 and never had to mess with the table since I put in place in the system.

I'm glad yours works well for you and you're enjoying your music! :)



 

RE: I have one of those Scottrt-modded 1600mk2 tables, posted on January 31, 2016 at 09:24:35
tubesforever
Manufacturer

Posts: 10505
Location: Great Basin
Joined: May 7, 2005
You are a lucky guy.

Scott does great work. He is highly skilled and a perfectionist. He really loves the stuff he does and it shows.

"Help support our school's Music programs"


 

RE: Throw them my way , posted on January 31, 2016 at 11:39:10
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
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Any and all LP-12 's not worthy ...... :)

 

tone arm cables...., posted on January 31, 2016 at 12:48:38
kuma
Audiophile

Posts: 10254
Location: IN
Joined: July 8, 2001
unfortunately it is very much a part of suspension so yes cable dressings can affect sonics.

On my tone arm, it is even worse since the cables are attached to the arm so adjusting the bounce whilst fiddling the P clip to adjust the tone arm cables requires some patience amongst other things. :D Perpendicular perfect bounce is just one of the things and does not guarantee stability.

I do realise Sondek isn't for everyone but it does not need to be fussed with often.

I know how frustrating it can be especially when you can't service the deck yourself.

 

Since I'm cheap..., posted on February 1, 2016 at 13:01:11
Dman
Audiophile

Posts: 7211
Location: Kansas
Joined: January 28, 2001
I did the next best thing- I BUILT an LP-12 clone with a subchassis (pre-Cirkus). New springs, motor/PSU from a Linn Axis and an Akito 2B arm/Ortofon Kontrpunkt b cart.

Suddenly, I find that I just don't have a need or feeling to upgrade anything! Is that bad? I dunno. It certainly cost me less that a new/"real" LP-12 or VPI (and by that, I really mean, "I can spend more money on records now).

It sounds good.

It makes music to my ears, and other than the typical "tune up" every 6 months or so (which my Linn Dealer/buddy says EVERY LP-12 should have done), I have a hassle-free set up...

If you enjoy it, then continue to enjoy it! I know I am...

Dman
Analog Junkie

 

The Linn, like the VPI, sits on a heavy table (250 lbs), posted on February 1, 2016 at 17:47:50
gkirkos
Audiophile

Posts: 201
Location: Seattle
Joined: February 6, 2015

And it's fine.

I don't walk around much when listening :-)

It's all about the coupling of the resonances. The table is next to the wall.

I may put it on a lighter shelf to see. We will see.

 

RE: I also have a Linn, but, posted on February 1, 2016 at 17:53:31
gkirkos
Audiophile

Posts: 201
Location: Seattle
Joined: February 6, 2015

I had the SDS (awesome) and the periphery ring (yuck). Signature JMW-9 arm.

VPI always sound cold and clinical to me.

 

What's the spec of your new sondek? (nt), posted on February 2, 2016 at 15:12:09
kuma
Audiophile

Posts: 10254
Location: IN
Joined: July 8, 2001
.

 

RE: Put away the VPI, got a Linn, posted on February 5, 2016 at 18:02:42
gkirkos
Audiophile

Posts: 201
Location: Seattle
Joined: February 6, 2015
New suspensions components (springs and dampers), Hercules II motor board, new motor, fully adjusted.

 

B&O Beogram 8000 and 8002 are suspended tables as well. Not., posted on February 5, 2016 at 18:47:59
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4560
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
Nt.

 

Meant NT., posted on February 5, 2016 at 18:51:00
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4560
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
Nt.

 

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