Something wrong with my ears?

Wow!, posted on July 28, 2015 at 03:42:27
John Elison Audiophile Posts: 23900 Location: Central Kentucky Joined: December 20, 2000 Contributor Since: January 29, 2004	I think Michael's turntable needs to go in for repair. Like you, I am very sensitive to pitch instability and it was quite apparent in this YouTube video. Whether or not it is the record player or the record would have to be determined. Perhaps if we heard a piano recording on his turntable it would confirm the problem to be in the turntable or not. Thanks, John Elison

RE: Wow!, posted on July 28, 2015 at 04:42:03
reuben Audiophile Posts: 1639 Joined: September 28, 2004	The hole in the record is off center. The reflections in the groove can be seen moving left to right. -reub Dark energy? Ridiculous! We live in an electric universe.

I was about to suggest that...., posted on July 28, 2015 at 05:18:42
vinyl1 Audiophile Posts: 3948 Joined: October 3, 2001	....as it is the most common cause of this sort of thing. The other possibility is that it is the horns. The horn is very difficult to play cleanly, and few orchestras attain the level of the Vienna Philharmonic. One of the horn players in the VPO said that it takes 20 or 30 years to really get the hang of playing those things.

Not the horns!, posted on July 28, 2015 at 05:25:12
jbcortes Audiophile Posts: 1399 Joined: July 6, 2000	I have the same recording on CD and it's impeccable. Plus I would be worried if any professional played that badly...

That was the first thing I heard when I DL'd this track..., posted on July 28, 2015 at 07:30:44
Dman Audiophile Posts: 7211 Location: Kansas Joined: January 28, 2001	I thought maybe it was just me at first, but D-Wife commented on it too! Someone should (if they haven't already) comment about it over at AP... Dman Analog Junkie

RE: Something wrong with my ears?, posted on July 28, 2015 at 08:22:53
Ozzy Audiophile Posts: 7587 Joined: September 21, 1999	I don't hear what you hear. But that could just be my poor ears.... Oz Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you. - Winston Churchill

Did they remaster for the new vinyl release?, posted on July 28, 2015 at 08:50:21
kuma Audiophile Posts: 10272 Location: IN Joined: July 8, 2001	I don't know their technical skills but personally I found Oue/Minnesota performance isn't the most inspiring. I've most of RR HDCDs, too.

I commented on YouTube, posted on July 28, 2015 at 09:03:33
vinyl1 Audiophile Posts: 3948 Joined: October 3, 2001	If you look at the tonearm carefully, it is definitely moving in and out, so the record is off-center. The wow is very slight, but it will get worse on the more inner grooves.

RE: needs one of these, posted on July 28, 2015 at 09:47:09

BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
Joined: April 10, 2002

I had one on hand in my system for a week - whiles I was setting up a tonearm for a customer.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

Nak Self Centering Turntable

Can't hear it, posted on July 28, 2015 at 10:04:11

MannyE
Audiophile

Posts: 2088
Location: Miami Beach
Joined: March 4, 2001

Although I feel that listening to "sound quality" on youtube is ridiculous unless it's in the context of other youtube videos, the recording sounds fine to me.

Like I said on the video (I'm Gandalf), I either can't hear it, don't know WTF wow sounds like, or it's something being generated by certain browers/the internet chain of equipment that gets youtube to your house.

Maybe if those hearing wow, listened to other examples and see if it's there as well?

As far as the needle moving side to side, it's very hard to see that for sure with that angle. Maybe, but maybe an up and down movement is being seen as side to side?

I hear it too., posted on July 28, 2015 at 11:02:02
Dave Pogue Audiophile Posts: 11689 Location: DC Area Joined: October 9, 2001	Played it twice. Same pitch waver.

RE: Can't hear it, posted on July 28, 2015 at 12:48:07

jbcortes
Audiophile

Posts: 1399
Joined: July 6, 2000

Try to focus on what happens after 1:49 on the video. The height of the note changes randomly and almost sounds out of tune, as if the turntable speed was changing constantly and very quickly.

It sounds like playing a note on a guitar, for example, and then turning the tuning peg in quick, tiny increments very quickly, making the note go down and over its correct original pitch. It creates an almost pulsating, or shifting effect for lack of a better word.

Sorry, hard to put into words!

JB

RE: Can't hear it, posted on July 28, 2015 at 13:07:34

MannyE
Audiophile

Posts: 2088
Location: Miami Beach
Joined: March 4, 2001

I think I know what you mean. I remember it happening with reel to reel tapes and u-matic video tape occasionally but it was VERY apparent as if someone was turning the pitch all the way up then all the way down.

It could also be my shitty headphones and cheap as chips audio card AND crappy slowest and cheapest internet connection that just doesn't allow the "vibrato" to show. I will try it on my friends super system and his ridiculously expensive professional headphones.

RE: Can't hear it, posted on July 28, 2015 at 13:16:51

jbcortes
Audiophile

Posts: 1399
Joined: July 6, 2000

"I think I know what you mean. I remember it happening with reel to reel tapes and u-matic video tape occasionally but it was VERY apparent as if someone was turning the pitch all the way up then all the way down. "

Yes that's exactly it. Obviously the change of pitch is not dramatic here but once your ear locks on the "wavering" effect, you'll hear it throughout the video. As mentioned, it's even more obvious after the 1.50 mark, as if the performer didn't have enough power to maintain a clean pitch.

To put things differently, imagine the right pitch as a straight line. In comparison, wow would be a little wavy line.

Nope!, posted on July 28, 2015 at 13:57:09
Cuernavaca Audiophile Posts: 878 Location: NW Joined: December 23, 2011	I just hope it's the pressing and not the equipment, I'd hate to spend that much $$$ and have it sound that bad! It makes my old Garrards, Thorens and Rek-O-Kut sound very good. TR "I've never owned a firearm, but I do have an attack parrot!"

it's probably the pressing..., posted on July 28, 2015 at 14:11:31
kuma Audiophile Posts: 10272 Location: IN Joined: July 8, 2001	just because they are premium audiophile records, there is no guarantee for the dead on centre hole. I had to return a few records because of it. Most notably show up on a sustained piano or single horns.

RE: Something wrong with my ears?, posted on July 28, 2015 at 14:16:48
2con Audiophile Posts: 77 Location: lombardia Joined: February 12, 2003	When you find yourself in trouble ...let it bit Make a comparison with a digital file ;it's the easiest way not to become crazy with analogue (always the best media to listen to music) or thinking your becoming deaf. Ciao

RE: Something wrong with my ears?, posted on July 28, 2015 at 15:11:08

Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004

First make sure you choose at least 480p playback-

I've heard the piece of music a few times as most people have but not THAT recording. But it doesn't do much for me. We also don't know the recording method MF used: Mic(s), line out etc. If you look at the right side of the platter next to the unused tonearm you can see the hole is off center. Enough to create what some are hearing? I don't know.

Also does anyone else see it as at least a little odd that MF posts this gear on YT and then defends it and wants to know why someone gave a thumbs down.

E
T

This is a nice recording too but I hear too much HF and sibilance

ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

Warp wow?, posted on July 28, 2015 at 15:22:39
Charlie S in Maryland Audiophile Posts: 34 Location: Maryland Joined: July 29, 2014	It's difficult to tell from the video but it appears that the tonearm's vertical pivot is above the plane of the record. This would magnify the effect of any warp wow. It doesn't cost more to get arm geometry correct. And for $28K couldn't they throw in a finger lift?

RE: Nope!, posted on July 28, 2015 at 20:11:39

John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
Since: January 29, 2004

Actually, all belt drive turntables need to have their belt replaced periodically. I think we all tend to wait too long between belt replacements. I know I do. Moreover, some of us are much more sensitive to slight pitch variations than others. I have always been very sensitive and I hear it in nearly all records to one degree or another. CDs, on the other hand, are usually rock solid unless they were sourced from analog tape.

Best regards,
John Elison

Sensitivity to pitch seems to vary greatly, posted on July 29, 2015 at 07:25:13

Bry
Manufacturer

Posts: 5610
Location: S. Florida
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I don't think tone deafness is a specific condition, but rather a large measure of insensitivity to pitch. I've heard wow that made my skin crawl while someone next to me says, "I think I hear what you're talking about...maybe...."

We all hear differently and how precisely pitch factors in is probably a big component of that. I'd love to hear through someone else's ears every once in a while. Then I'd jump to other things like does red look the same to everyone, what's it like to have boobs, etc.. :)

RE: Something wrong with my ears?, posted on July 29, 2015 at 09:24:22

Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000

The speed variations were similar to "flutter" that's common in cheap cassette tape playback...... The one instrument where such speed aberrations are most noticeable is piano......

For how massive that platter appears, the motor must be pretty powerful (or the belt drive pulley be very small in diameter) to generate the type of pitch stability I was hearing. Quick pitch variations are more common in turntables with relatively light platters. It didn't sound like "peak warp wow" (which occurs periodically with each revolution), but I wouldn't discount that either. (Peak warp wow is a sign of the arm being too massive for the cartridge compliance.)

I also noticed the LP itself was badly eccentric. Bad enough to see in the murky YouTube video. But pitch variation from eccentric LPs is most noticeable on the inner grooves. Not so much noticeable in the video because the outer grooves were played. (The speed variation is "sinusoidal wow" in eccentric LPs.)

It's not the record..., posted on July 29, 2015 at 09:43:34
Tre' Industry Professional Posts: 17292 Location: So. Cal. Joined: February 9, 2002	it's that blue thing underneath the record. Tre' Have Fun and Enjoy the Music "Still Working the Problem"

Record Eccentricity, posted on July 29, 2015 at 11:28:46
gkirkos Audiophile Posts: 201 Location: Seattle Joined: February 6, 2015	yup

RE: it's probably the pressing..., posted on August 1, 2015 at 09:54:19

desertorganist
Audiophile

Posts: 246
Location: Southwestern U.S.
Joined: May 31, 2007

Things that reveal off-center pressings:
1) Piano, especially slow, sustained piano
2) Organ with tremulants not in use, especially slow, sustained music. Doesn't matter if its loud or quiet; the on-or-off character of organ pipes ruthlessly reveals pitch instability.
3) Sustained orchestral chords. Last night I played a record of "Also sprach Zarathustra" that was ever so slightly off-center; it didn't reveal itself until the end of side 1, with the big, slow, full orchestra statement of the C-G-C motive. Another ruthless one is the very end of Mahler's Symphony No. 3--big, full, organ-like chords spread through the whole orchestra, played with all the steadiness and rich sonority brass players can muster up at the end of a long piece. Any waver gives itself away.

Vinyl Asylum

Something wrong with my ears?

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